818. - Pablo Torre

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? We're going to do it all. It is an extremely warm July day. here in new york um i had to wear jeans earlier which felt like uh punishment but we've gotten some good news today jason okay this is we we had to wear jeans but we don't have to wear shoes or we don't have to take off our shoes look of course i have pre-check you know and i haven't but you're a clear member as well but occasionally um you travel with people who maybe for reasons um get tsa pre-check or the scammer clear approval so therefore even someone like me an advanced traveler has to go through the line and i have to let my dogs out in the line and as a non-sock wearer you know most of the time i don't really want to be plodding around on the fucking linoleum of jfk i mean who bloody does so i mean i guess that is a sweet thing that you do not only do you give your uh undocumented citizen wife the upgrade to first class every time you also say you know you know what shouty i'm gonna go through gen pop tsa with you i'm not gonna circumvent i'm not gonna go into my own separate one that's actually downstairs there's no stairs or escalator it's elevator only the elevator is heated and cooled fiji water only but yeah i'll stop doing that and hang out to you and go barefoot at jfk what a guy people say you're a dick i take i say

I take off my shoes. I pull out my laptop. It's just unbelievable, really, what's happening out there. But today I got an alert. I was with my friend Matt earlier, and I looked at my phone quickly. I saw the alert that the TSA is no longer going to require you to take your shoes off. So I don't know if this means America won or the terrorists won, but either way, the shoes stay on. It's all a bunch of bullshit. We've definitely spent billions and billions of dollars since 9-11 to police the taking on and the taking off of our shoes at the airport. So it's nice. Unless tomorrow somebody builds a bomb. I mean, the Hoka. 2001, the soles were not that big. The Hoka looks like a bomb already. Almost 25 years ago when 9-11 was. Oh, Jesus. Never forget. The Asics Marathon Runner shoes, the soles, what, four inches tall? They're wide bodies. You could fit, you know, those C4 little... little m80s i i had on the you could fit two or three of those in your shoe lengthwise nope problemo lengthwise we'll load them it'll look like a pack of franks going through tsa and they said come on in mister they got no idea what i'm really packing in here yeah it's it's a big day and i'm glad that that we've moved past it it's only been like you said you know two decades so It's breaking news, but yeah. Breaking news. Yeah, so your travel swag has improved. Speaking of that, I need to go do my global entry appointment. Unfortunately, the only place to do that is at LAX. That's why I don't have global entry. I cannot get myself to go to JFK. I believe in New York there's maybe off-site ones now, because that's how pre-check used to be, too. You just have to go to the airport. But you're going to brave it. You're going to go to LAX, leave the car running, jog in there, and get your biometrics taken? Well, there's two different options. The irony is in order to get a get-out-of-jail-free pass, you have to go to jail. That's right. It feels wrong, but there's two ways of doing it. You can go and just on the outskirts, probably near where Eatscon was held.

2025 eats con just like it's not you don't have to go into the actual airport but it's like right on the right on the cusp it's like the private terminal let's say call it lax heights and then there's like a little yeah there's there's an old world war ii plane on the front lobby lawn kind of thing you can go in there and get it i'm just gonna have to bite the bullet and do it the other option which i tried to do one time gave up within 10 seconds when you once you land back in america from a foreign country once you go all the way through customs line you know the serpentining thousands of people finally get through then you're able to instead of going to your house or your car or your uber you can go into a different line and then do a impromptu oh just a quick little meeting right there This little bop-in. Walk-ins are allowed. And then the wait for that is only, you know, another three to four hours. Sure, sure. It's a light. It's a light. You're getting home 24 hours after you left. I know you just got back from Bali. You still got a little Waska going through your system, but let's do another line and we're going to retinal scan you and make sure you're a terrorist. Got a little Waska left in my system. Sorry, excuse me. I realized, I think I've said this to you before, but I think the only time I've flown into LAX and had to go through customs was when we came back from the addition hotel opening in Mexico. I don't think I've ever done it before except for that one time, which seems crazy, but I... I do think it might be somehow worse than JFK, which is, you know, I don't want to pit them against each other. Well, you know, that specific run is definitely like, I'm going to go here so the kids can do the little wave pool and then we're going to get the this and that. But it really is so I could buy three to 700 painkillers, Xanny bar, you know, whatever. That's where it all goes down. And I've always been too afraid to do that.

I understand that. I understand that. Sometimes you got to be afraid. I noticed that Orlando Bloom and Katy Perry were kind of on holiday together on a yacht. And some people are saying they're just co-parenting. Daily Mail is calling it a raw split, like a controversial. I just. A raw split is when my spleef breaks in half and I gotta lick it and try to put it back together. Raw split's the newest Khalifa mixtape. It's dropping next week. But I just, I thought it was so interesting that, like, bro, I don't care how many kids you have. If you just broke up after being married, do not get on that boat. I don't care if it's David Geffen inviting you. I don't care if it's Barry Diller. I don't care if this is a boat you used to hoe on at Cannes. You cannot get on that boat with your ex-chick a month after you broke up when you've been at the Bezos wedding with Sidney Sweeney. Like, you just can't do that. Yeah, it's not for a lack of child care as well. There's more nannies on that yacht than the Laurel Canyon parking lot. Yeah, no, it's staffed up. No pun intended. Staffed up. No, no. I mean, maybe Bloom was like, you know, I just need a ride. Maybe he was transporting himself. Who knows? Well, another interesting thing about Bloom's resurgence, his re-Bloom, is that he's been wearing almost exclusively Stussy chapter T-shirts, which is kind of the classic Stussy design that says the city name where it was purchased. And I think he's worn at least Paris and Tokyo maybe a third. which just seems like an interest. I've never seen him wear anything like this in his life. Do you think he's having a midlife crisis? I mean, I guess if you're the kind of guy where they're talking about, you know, Bloom just ordering 9-11s off his phone because he's bored. I think the midlife crisis, that is giving more so than, you know, copying the $23 t-shirt. It's true. To me, it reminds me of the, I mean, I guess it's him trying to.

you know signal youth perhaps with that uh it it feels like the modern day like in the 80s and 90s celebs would always wear the hard rock or hard rock the planet hollywood yeah actually you gotta let them know that you've been you're global this hobbit's global yeah i went to the stussy i mean i guess not to mention bali again but what is it the monkey monkey whatever monkey head potato head potato head the famous potato head um Alyssa Vingen, who has been on the pod, posted today that there's a picture online. Because Sofia Coppola did this event last night in Paris. A lot of people went to like a gala type event. Love a gala. Romy Mars, her cool daughter, posted a picture of her holding hands with her boyfriend, who is the son of James Jebbia, the supreme founder. Which feels like it could be too powerful to kind of continue into college. I don't know what you think. Do you mean it's going to burn too bright and it's not going to last? Yeah, I just think that is an incredible kind of New York City downtown private school pairing that I'm glad that we have heard about, but I don't know if they're in it for the long haul, is what I'm saying. I mean, hopefully it's just a fun little summer fling. I mean, it does feel Shakespearean, doesn't it, in so many ways? It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It really is beautiful. It's like the two houses. have chosen that their most eligible spawn should court and reproduce because the potential for collaboration is too strong. It's just too strong. And the village shan't ignore it. Royal families that eat at Bar Pity have decided over a plate of rigatoni that they're going to try to get these two to procreate. But it's a little early. And actually, the interesting part is you've got the Coppola clan, which until Megalopolis was powerful and respected and maybe considered the overarching leader of the two in terms of financial status and power.

And now that that that Daddy Coppola sold all his shit, sold all of his wine, dumped it into this flop movie. Jebbia is like, oh, yes, I remember. I mean, how much money did Supreme sell to? Well, unfortunately, yeah, but VF Corp ain't doing too well either. But yes, I mean, Supreme, obviously, he made plenty of money when he sold it. I think somebody else bought it after that. But yes. Yeah, James Jebbia, Celebrity Net Worth, says his net worth is around $800 million. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad. I'll never forget. Francis Ford Coppola net worth, it was at $400 million before. uh let's say he consolidated some of those funds well let's let's but we we need to 120 yeah he dropped 120 mil what they're bringing to the table with the coppola name and lineage is is you can't put a value on that try to put a price on it you can't try try to put a price on that um all right we do have a guest say pablo torre is joining us. He is a longtime TV personality podcaster. He used to be on ESPN. He wrote a great story that got turned into a 30 for 30 called How and Why Athletes Go Broke, which I remember watching. But he's got this new show, Pablo Torre Finds Out. which is kind of like right up your street a little bit, even though it's about sports. I feel like it's like the good kind of podcast. It's not all about sports, actually. To me, there's a show, that guy Adam Conover, he had a show called Adam Ruins Everything, where it's like a nerdy investigative journalism thing where he discovers blah, blah, blah. Torrey's show is sort of like a... a less nerdy version of that, but still quite nerdy. How does it compare to PJ's show? It's not dissimilar in that, to me, it's podcasting the way that it used to be in the come-from-the-school-of-NPR-PBS kind of vibe. There's a story. We're going to set up a premise for this hour-long show where we're going to discover the answer to this weird, esoteric question.

The first 45 minutes of it are going to be my book report on the subject in general, and then the last 15 are the thing. We're going to get into it. It's the kind of thing that if you're stressed out going through shit and it's a Sunday and you're walking to the farmer's market and you just want to hear a story about beekeepers or something. It's there for you. No problem. My brother's a big fan. I know he listens to him for all of his basketball knowledge. Yeah, it's real hooper hours type shit. All right, let's give him a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do all our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded.

Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. What's up, bro? How are you? Am I the bro in question? Do I get to answer to that? Yeah, Jason, I have 15 nicknames for Jason. We just met. Bro is all I got so far. So if you could just give me a little more material, I'll be able to get into something. I was going to say my goal now is to aspire to something post bro with you. But for now, for now, a total pleasure to be your bro. Goal setter. I like it. Where are you joining us from? You're in New York. Goal setter. I'm in New York. One of the goals I have clearly reached is to build an office out of a closet in my bedroom. And so here I am. Okay. Which part of Ridgewood are you in? I like to think that I'm leading the midtown renaissance. I don't know if you guys have been aware of this. Oh, I love a midtown renaissance. No, I think a midtown renaissance is real, and you can get a great apartment for a very reasonable price. Thank you for teeing me up for my actual venture here, which is to tell people that square footage is a steal in midtown. Give us some numbers, Pablo. Well, I'm not equipped, legally speaking, to disclose those numbers. But I'm born and raised in Manhattan. I grew up in – and this is something that I need to, like, stop and catch myself with every time I begin to say it because I was born and raised in Murray Hill. Damn, and you're not even white. That's crazy. That is exactly – Jason, Murray Hill is maybe the whitest place on planet Earth somehow, like, wider than parts of, like, the Midwest. Do you think that if you didn't grow up in Murray Hill, you would be less white in your adulthood? It's a great question that I contemplate all the time, Jason. Well said. What I reckon with is that Murray Hill, where I grew up, is a place where, as Chris was alluding to, young consultants go to vomit. Yeah. Like that's, you know, the sidewalks. Literally, that's what it is. Oh, no, truly. It's people who are going to live in New York for two to five years after college to drink. Like that is who lives there. Yes, yes. And so my childhood memories have been.

Besmirched by the, yeah, the actual puke of McKinsey and Bain first year associates. And so all of that is to say that it used to be a place where people, where non-whites could grow up and aspire to the American dream. Sure, sure. And instead, I have been displaced to Midtown East, several blocks north, which is something that I now am very proud of. Murray Hills sort of sits on the east side of the island between Lower East Side and Midtown, where you live now. Or is that sort of true? It's no man's land. It's not downtown. It's not Midtown. And it's not Nomad, either. It's not Nomad's Land. It's not Kip's Bay. Kip's Bay. Jason? Jason, I just got to clarify the Kips Bay part for legal reasons. Yeah, I'm from Kips Bay. I mean, Kips Bay, I've always said, is inside of Murray Hill. I don't know if now I'm violating the various treatises of Street Easy. No, no. No, I don't. Jason, you've been to Kips Bay. I remember, Jason, you visited Kips Bay to see a movie once when you were in New York. And I was like, oh, you went to Kips Bay. That's a twisted little area. If you say so. Well, I guess my question was, if it is in between Midtown and the East Village, Lower East Side. You sort of had the decision once you hit adulthood, do I go south into the right wing promenade of Dime Square, etc.? Do I move north? I'm assuming that you have a kid. Yeah, I have a kid. So, in fact, I get to live up to this caricature of a New Yorker. Yeah, I moved here. I moved back into the... No shade. No, it's shout out to my five-year-old daughter. It is... It is a decision we made when my wife got pregnant in the fall of 2019. Before then, I did resemble the choices you laid out. I first lived in Chinatown over on Bowery and Pell in a mouse infested apartment, which has since been gut renovated. I just recently went back and checked it out. A 400 square foot on Pell that's got five bedrooms in it somehow now.

We had two living rooms, three other bros with me, and one million mice. I presume it is now about $10,000 a square foot. I want to ask for clarity here just because it makes a big difference. Two living rooms? Mice or rats? We're talking mice in our apartment. Countless have killed mice with these hands. I'm waving irresponsibly on this call. But rats, of course, on the sidewalk down below. Sure. Of course. I just think I think there's a very clear distinction because a rat in the house is crazy. I've never I mean, by the way, if you told me if a friend came to me and was like, I have a rat in my apartment, I would tell them you need to, like, leave unless they're Italian. And that's like how they talk. I completely agree with you. Yeah. If they're a Nicholson in The Departed, it's sort of like we get it. It's very on the nose. OK, I got it now. How are you able to tell the difference between a baby rat and a mouse, though? Coloring. Oh, the coloring. Yeah. A mouse is traditionally pretty white. And a rat, I would say, leans more gray-black. Like Murray Hill, the mice are. Yeah, it's a clear distinction. But do your parents, why do you think they settled in Murray Hill? So my parents worked at NYU. My parents are from the Philippines, came over to this country to have me. To have me, I was born here. First, one of my family born here. Hell yeah, brother. That's right. Show us the passport. Let's go. Well, I shouldn't for legal reasons these days. Sure, sure. I live in the nether zone of plausibly definitely not being at all. in question as a citizen of this country you're a born and raised american just like us pablo next question moving on that's right allow me allow me to rip the sleeves off my shirt to fully blend in uh i have i i say that though to say that uh yeah i don't really know why except to say that it was convenient for work for them and when i had the ability finally i i was i think a fact i was a fact checker it's where it's illustrated when i finally moved out i lived at home for two years and then i decided to uh

be an adult and so i went to this mouse infested uh loft thing in chinatown hold on hold on you're telling me that you you graduated from harvard and then went to be a fact checker at sports illustrated just to be clear to be even clearer i went home lived in my childhood room and checked facts at sports illustrated after that exact sequence of events. After going to school in Cambridge, I apologize for making it so obvious. Thank you for enabling the discretion that I demand. Right outside of Boston. And we graduated with official credit. You weren't out at the bottom of the class. We were magna cum laude. We were excelling at Harvard. Leave the school. Go back to the small apartment childhood bedroom. And then you were there for two years, checking facts for Sports Illustrated, assuming not a very high-paying job. As much as I caught the exhaust pipe... of the golden age of magazines. I was just like, on the way, as the town car was driving away in the night, I got to huff the last fumes of it. So I had the residue of like, there used to be a drink cart in this hallway. But instead, it's just me checking a fact. Yeah, no, it was as grotesque as you can imagine when it came to like, hey, mom and dad, this is what I'm doing. I'm coming home. And I am not going to grad school. I am not doing the thing of lawyering or doctoring. I am checking some facts for a magazine about sports. I mean, your parents are obviously, you know, educators and academics. So they were clear that fact checker was a job. I think some parents would be like, what the fuck is that? You know what I mean? I've never heard of that before. Not the biggest sports fan, so there was a healthy dose of like, what the fuck are you doing with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes, they recognized that like, yeah, look, I don't know. I remember trying to explain like, oh, Sports Illustrated, this is a literary tradition of sports writing in which, you know, John Updike used to publish in these pages. And I don't know, I can effectively.

estimate that they gave zero fucks about that. Yeah, they definitely didn't. But I mean, look, it all worked out. But I guess that when you're fact-checking at Sports Illustrated, are you having to get into the weeds with numbers and statistics as well as the general stuff? The process was as glamorous as I had to cross out with a pencil every... uh letter and punctuation mark on a printout of a draft so yeah it was everything um it was it was it was frankly where i learned to sort of like repress i think the intuitive gag reflex of i gotta call someone now i just had to do a zillion of those there's nothing i love more than getting the call from the fact checker and being reminded of the stupid thing that i said and that i can't really go back from there you know i kind of yeah that is what i said actually you recorded it so this is where we're at yes and it's also i remember also distinctly there are some writers who i revere by the way who also like version to something and you guys are familiar with of course the whole thing but like some form of like uh celebrity psychoanalysis where you're also trying to check a fact that's clearly also an interpretation and you're kind of like being like i don't want to give you the the line they used but i do need to sort of ascertain whether you are in fact uh Haunted by your parents' disappointment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, can we figure this out without me bumming you out and everybody walks away happy until the story comes out, of course. Can I prevent me, fact checker, getting a call from my editor being like, why the fuck are you preemptively undermining this story that we're about to publish? That's really funny. That's really funny. What a job. Checker's going to check. I feel like that really used to be a job that was like you got your foot in the door. That was a common way in. It was the bottom line of the ladder. From there, much like the camera view that I got of Jason when I first logged on here, you were looking up. It's the CAA or William Morris mailroom of publishing. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I guess at least you get to touch a lot of things. You get to see a lot of things from a lot of people. So, you know, at least it's that. At least you're getting to get familiar with several voices. Yeah. By the way, I have friends who, you know, tried to do the agent mailroom thing and they... They had voices foisted upon them as well. I just think it was less upwardly mobile. At least for me, part of the whole game here was, if I could be so retrospectively cynical, was like, I'm going to do this, but I'm also going to pitch stuff. I'm going to be annoying in an editorial meeting. I'm going to say, I have an idea. I can tell you're annoying, so that's good to you. I'm glad you admitted that. You're going to be the squeaky wheel. Yeah. Grease me. unfortunately i've glamorized the hollywood agency mailroom to the point where i like regret not doing it even though i know it's awful and i'm not really a glutton for punishment like that but i do think there's a sort of badge of honor you get from doing that especially in the heyday oh yeah like my god like what it would have been like If only I could have been yelled at by Harvey Weinstein back in... Look, as far as things that Harvey Weinstein could do to me, I think yelling is the best case scenario. Touche. Best case. Yeah, but if he yells at you, then you might get that best supporting actor role, Chris. Yeah, exactly. Do the math if it's worth it. Do you think that now the fact-checking role has sort of been replaced by Grok? It sort of has been in my life. Yeah, I think anecdotally, it's funny that both of the sort of like sliding doors possibilities in front of me, I was going to go to law school probably was almost definitely the thing I would have. You fucked up. I mean, but but except except except for the fact that I believe Brock or any of these LLMs, they are actively also just eating that. So anything that resembles like document analysis, I think. However overly confident these decision makers are about how we're going to replace humans doing document analysis with AI doing document analysis, certainly I think the first place you start is like, hey, do this immediately, actually.

Yes, seemingly that's better. I want it yesterday, and they're like, okay, I could literally do that. I think I'm going to start saying when I'm reading a book, instead of reading a book, I think I'm going to say I'm analyzing this document. I think it sounds a little more profound. I'm analyzing and synthesizing. I'm actually doing two things. I feel like Grok comes up a lot, Jason. Grok is only on Twitter, right? I think so. But you might be able to Grok outside of. x can you grok outside of x the grok thing as far as i've never grokked outside of x i've never grokked at all um i must confess but part of like the kink of grok seems to be that you have to do it in your timeline yeah oh you have to like see it you have okay i see it has to be so others others can can you sort of it's an exhibitionism of your most intimate inquiries as far as i can tell yeah and but it is a nice little and it almost feels necessary as ai images and fake news stories and fake everything is going on it's nice to have that little graph grok at the bottom of something to let you know like No, this video is actually from seven years ago in a different country. It's not, you know, what happened last night or whatever. It's nice to know because, you know, our generation and older is pretty much unable to really tell if things are real or not on the internet anymore. Yeah. And we need the Grok, unfortunately. Well, how do you use AI in your content creation right now? I mean, not nearly as much as I probably should, given how often I hear about people using it very effectively and saving lots of money. I have sort of like inadvertently with this show that I host, Pablo Torre finds out, I have a small staff of people instead of a staff of AI bots. And if they're listening. Oh, you don't say you're old school. You hire human beings to do the work. I've unfortunately inefficiently relied on humans to simulate what it was like to be. Yeah. Someone who, I don't know, analyze the document in a way that took a lot longer. But in all honesty, the thing that it does help with is two things actually is like and I don't know how.

effective this is so i do always have a human on the back end just like make sure hey check this make sure it's good uh but like translation uh incredibly effective and and then yeah some form of like document analysis aka as chris points out reading uh in which it's like can you here's a 500 page page pdf please pull out all the excerpts that involve this search term and that is that has been helpful yeah no so no like uh illustrations for Social media. We have we have a we have a human assets. We have a human who does that, but I have played with it and have been therefore disappointed by it. I think you can get away with it and no one can really know the difference at this point. I don't want to claim like I'm doing farm to table podcasting or whatever the fuck. I just I just know that I have found it when I played with mid journey and I did for a while pay for like the monthly version or whatever, got enough credits to generate. Hey, give me, you know, bill belichick uh you know on a dais you know wearing a tuxedo or something um it's not great it's just not not great at that yet what's up with your bill shit bro because i love i love that bill found love and you seem to be you know i i think it's nice i think if she's after his money he's got enough of it who cares it's making him feel young and and alive and you know His him's prescription is hitting Nicole Smith situation. Yeah. I mean, it's elder abuse, but who cares if he's on board? I mean, tricking if you got it. Much like I should I should conceive that much like the sport of football itself, if you sign up for consensual concussions, go with God like you're you. It's your kink is your kink. I truly there's no shame in this where it is fascinating to me and worthy of my certainly not moralizing, but my like. you know raised eyebrow and i would say uh investigative journalism is like why is it that you were one way before and now you're the opposite now what are the decisions that you make that are so different now versus when you were the coach of the patriots the head of the patriots and why and that's where it's like oh now we're in that realm of of interiority it's very simple it's very simple and you're intellectualizing it

He was using his brain with the Patriots, and he's using his dick with this young chick. And those are the two things. That's the clear and present difference. So what exactly was it? What was he doing before that he seems to be contradicting now with his dick-havery? In the realm of dick-having, Bill Belichick is a bit of an archetype. He was... No stranger to the game. Are you straight? I mean, look, I'm a dick haver. I don't really... Possession. I don't put labels on it. By the way, Chris, reminded to tell your dick story that you told me in between right before we were talking. Okay, okay, okay. Carry on, Pablo, sorry. Put a pin in Chris's dick story for me. I also want to hear that. I believe... You have no idea. Well done, Pablo. Pablo knows exactly what he's doing. Sorry, go ahead. I always regarded Bill Belichick as, frankly, a dick. He was an archetype of being he was in so many words, America's emotionally withholding dad. He was Mr. Do Your Job, Mr. No Distractions, Mr. I Will Bench My Best Cornerback in the Super Bowl because he was doing something that offended our team culture. He was disciplined. He was Mr. Sun Tzu, quote, hanging on the wall of his office. He was just that. archetype and he was incredibly private and incredibly antagonistic towards the media and had no interest actually in being a public figure he kind of lived in defiance of it all of this sounds so cool i gotta say first of all this whole personality is sick as hell and we need more of that and then you're saying somebody who was like i bet you never had somebody suck it from the back and now Exactly. A full transformation. Rewired the DNA in his body. All of a sudden, he's changing the will. That's how serious it was. The smile muscles on his face were awoken after decades. But, Pablo, as you describe his personality as kind of a no-nonsense sort of leader, the reason people are okay with that is because he won.

Yeah. So you can be as much of a dick as you want if you continue to win. He'll bench the star player and he'll still win the game. Also, if you're from Boston. And he just pulled your chick. Yeah, Boston loves dicks. That's like what they're built on. That's the culture of Boston. They run on dick. They run on dick. Yeah, the center of the Boston ideological Venn diagram is its campus liberalism and its assholery is love of dick. It's a crazy combo, but I think that you're right. I think that really is the two things. As someone who went to school outside of Boston, I can personally verify this. Sure. I took the T in sometimes, but it was mostly in Cambridge. So that's right. That's right. The thing about Belichick, though, is, yes, he was, by the way, this is the great man theory of sports. Right. Like you are the leader and might makes right. You want he was. By the way, I bury the lead here. Arguably, this is the greatest coach in the history of America's most popular sport. Right. And he won in that way, such that everything got reverse engineered to be. a strategy. Oh, I see. Like this might just be this guy's personality, but we've intellectualized and picked it apart as a strategy as opposed to just like an approach to life. He's just doing him. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot. because I can't do anything. You need some art hung, TaskRabbit. You need something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs,

handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. We are live from Fetty's house. Guests are gathering around the TV, even with a big storm outside. Are we worried about the feet? Nope. Xfinity Wi-Fi. Get reliable fiber-powered gig Wi-Fi with Peacock included to stream the beautiful game this summer. Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. New gig internet customers only. Actual speeds vary. Offer for Peacock Premium with ads currently at $10.99 a month value and limited to Xfinity internet members with newer upgraded gig speed or faster service. Activation required to access content. Peacock must be activated within first 90 days. Management of existing subscriptions may be required to avoid multiple subscriptions and duplicate charges. Third-party built subscriptions continue until canceled.

To Jason's point about like, you know, this rules. Yeah, this whole like doing him being a dick to the media. But I'm not here because I am I am weeping for all the mean things he said to reporters and press conferences, many of which, by the way, I'm sure asked dumb questions. Yeah, that is not that is not the fainting couch I'm choosing to collapse onto. It is merely the idea that this guy was so aggressively one thing and was effectively, by the way, undefeated in press conferences in that way. He was weirdly he he was so uncharismatic that he became charismatic to that description. It was like a thing that people admired because he won because he was so consistent with it. And because, again, tattered hooded sweatshirts. aggressively uninterested in he's a style icon i think that goes without saying certainly so it's kind of like if uh if like adam sandler just started fucking a 24 year old chick out of nowhere and it's like it's cool i get it you're you're old you could do whatever you want but this is just something feels off here and maybe bill's like i worked hard my whole life what are you going to do when you retire Get my dick sucked by a 24-year-old all day versus like I'm going to pick up pickleball. I think she's 27, and I think that I – first of all, the Sandman is doing the same thing. It's just on the low. And I think that Bill – I'm proud of Bill for kind of being out and proud, being like I'm an old guy getting taken advantage of, and I don't give a shit who knows it. So as a fact checker, he is 24. Okay, my bad. How dare you? How dare you? Yeah. OK, 24. How old is Bill? 72. I believe he's 72. There's a gulf there between their ages. But that's not the thing to me. I look I'm with you guys like about here to yuck their yum. Whatever. Like that's not the first relationship with a vast age gap. It's not independently interesting either, even if it is funny, objectively, for reasons that the math would indicate. What I am saying is that when Bill Belichick, to Chris's point, when Bill Belichick stops winning.

And he is no longer allowed to remain the leader of the New England Patriots. And he is effectively thrown out of the NFL. He has to figure out, what am I going to do with my life? And it turns out that he had met Jordan Hudson as I and this is something that I self-loathingly but proudly say, as I exclusively reported. Jordan Hudson was 19 years old on the plane that they met each other. There's more in that episode. Why was Jordan on the plane, though? So Jordan was on the plane to meet her then boyfriend, who was, I believe, in his 60s at the time. These are just facts, not judgments. Who was in Palm Beach. They were headed to Palm Beach on a JetBlue flight. Bill Belichick flies JetBlue. What's the median age on a Boston to Florida flight anyway? It can't be sub-50, right? I would say that, yeah, you know, Jordan Hudson is a dot on one side of the graph. You're saying that this wasn't a private flight? This was a JetBlue mint? So despite, this is a good question, despite the fact that Bill Belichick was making 20 or so million dollars a year for years and years and years, yes, he flew direct Boston Logan Airport to Palm Beach. Florida. He would go to Jupiter and play golf at the Trump Golf Club there. And he was a guy who flew JetBlue. No judgment either. Just facts. He flew JetBlue Mint. Correct. And that's where he encountered in the seat right next to him in a meet cute that Bill Belichick's family, I can also tell you, does not believe to be random, even though I have no indication that it is anything but. So you're saying she's sitting next to Bill in their 1A, 1B in JetBlue Mint. And maybe he's fiddling with his phone. He can't get the font size large enough. She sort of sees her opportunity to reach in and help him start a conversation. She's in 7C. She switches with somebody. Oh, I spilled my drink. We moved the boarding passes. I don't know. This is my seat. And then boom. Yeah, I just think that you're right. Maybe the whiplash of his sort of change in direction is what people are more.

interested in than him actually i mean we'll always be interested in an old guy and a young chick that's america that's the american way but true but i it's even more than i think outsiders the reason why this story kind of like popped onto my radar in a really blinking like holy shit kind of a way is because it was the people who know and are like uh physically emotionally even closest to belichick who felt that whiplash most acutely And it is people in the Belichick family. It is people who worked for him, people who are. You know why, Pablo? You know why, Pablo? Because they saw their money dashing. They saw they said this will is going to get changed. Everything is going to change. Everything is going to change. We have to get this bitch out of here. That's what they were saying. So on top of that, which I will not take the time to refute on top of that, on top of that, it is also the fact. that uh this was making him look like a laughingstock and that's true and what he did i mean and this is getting to by the way so to speed run through a bit of that flight just because i think you guys would find this amusing so she is sitting next to him she brings she is a philosophy major uh and she has her textbook on on uh deductive logic and so there is an inscription that bill balachek wrote to jordan hudson in the you know front cover of her philosophy textbook And it's dated and it's signed and it is, you know, Bill Belichick, Hall of Fame, blah, blah, blah, eight rings, so forth and so forth. So that's it's that's how we know is that there is this artifact. So he gave her a Jeter style post smash gift basket, kind of, but in a signature of. Of her textbook. A little something to show the grandkids. Hold on. To be clear, Bill Belichick didn't write this textbook. It was just a surface for him to autograph. It was written by a Harvard philosophy professor, actually. Okay. All right. One of your guys. The type of show I do, as a pure side note, is the kind of show where we went and interviewed Professor Warren Goldfarb, the author of the book, to know, like, did you know this? Did you know anything about this? And he's...

Kind of hilariously himself proud that he was like a philosophical aphrodisiac for the relationship that I believe America is obsessed with. Wingman. Nothing gets a guy that hasn't been hard in 20 years going like philosophy. I guess maybe seeing. Tom Brady with his shirt off at certain times probably worked, but this worked better. Well, I believe that some part of this is like the Brady thing. I mean, there's just so many ways to like further drag you into this sort of rabbit hole with me. Hold on, do Brady and Belichick have beef or are they good? They have become better in recent years, but one of the key moments here is... There's that Netflix roast of Tom Brady, which is live and, you know, globally very, very well-trafficked, it seems. Very popular for Netflix. They're going to do a zillion of them now. Belichick's on stage, and Brady is like, when he gets his turn at the end to like, you know, roast back, he roasts Belichick over Jordan Hudson and makes this joke that prompted me to do another thing on my show. But he mentions, Brady says, For a long time, whenever I got asked the question, what's your favorite ring? I would say the next one. But now I have a new answer. It's that ring cam video of a shirtless Bill Belichick walking out of that poor girl's home. And for those not familiar with the lore, there was a there was a there was a viral video from a ring camera that got circulated on the Internet of a shirtless. And I would say and stand by this description is after Bill Belichick sort of just like wandering around on the porch. Kind of like dazed and confused like a bear. And very hairy. And that just became like a what it what? We've never seen Bill Belichick with post-nut clarity. This is the first time in history we've seen that. It was an intimate view. But you're saying Bill was built like a Coca-Cola bottle is what you're saying. He had titties, hips, and ass on him. He was working with a monster. And he had some nice little titties on him too. Yeah, he was working with a monster. I don't have my glasses on. Is that Saweetie? Oh, that's Bill. Okay, sorry.

Babe, can you give me my readers? I can't see. Wow, that's actually – but this story continues until they break up, basically. People won't leave this alone until Bill leaves her or she leaves him, is Maya. So they are now enmeshed professionally. So what happens after he gets thrown out of the NFL is that he starts – he does this. He starts – a podcast. He has a half dozen media ventures. Again, the guy who hated media becomes a media guy, tries to, tries to, to avoid being labeled exactly what Chris just labeled him, because he's the greatest winner, and now he has to figure out, like, what am I going to be? And so he starts to do the talking to a microphone thing, and the COO of his production company, which, of course, is a funny thing to imagine, if you know Bill Belichick from his days as a coach, his production company is Jordan Hudson. And she's functioning as his agent. What do you know? She is the person on set. Because that's why she stepped in during that interview and made them stop. And then it was on camera and people lost their fucking mind. Yes. So this is all explaining the CBS Sunday morning interview, which is also for anybody who's fluent in media. Unbelievable. The funniest possible scripted set. For that interaction is CBS Sunday morning. One of my favorite and crotchetiest kind of TV programs. Like, she didn't know what that was until she was there stopping the interview. Oh, yeah. But just the idea that, like, there will be. You know, this is being thrown. What she didn't appreciate, maybe, is that Gayle King is going to throw to this as like a bird is chirping on the, you know, the music bed. And this is like the puffiest piece that she could have hoped for. And instead, she doesn't want to tell the story that I've obviously begun to tell you about, like how they met and all that stuff. And that becomes just the most public window short of, I would say, the reason I started looking into this, which was the Super Bowl commercial.

connoisseurs of of excellent brand marketing dunkin donuts does the super bowl commercial and it's the the boston avengers how could i forget how could i forget you know yeah the boston avengers how many racist guys can we get in one commercial it's the boston avengers how many guys with wikipedia pages we got a scrub can we get into the same jumpsuit this going no so it's so it's that it's the duncan it's the dunk kings right and it's affleck and damon and Both Affleck's actually and Damon. And I had learned that the person and so they want to book Belichick and the person that Affleck and Damon needed to go through to get Bill Belichick, the favorite coach of their favorite football team, is it turns out. this jordan hudson character i do not want ben affleck calling my chick for any reason who was probably 22 at the time i'm sure affleck and damon have children older than this person and they have to go have a meeting and say is it okay if we talk to your boyfriend on the on the commercial and give him eight million dollars for a half an hour of work well and what she's like Well, what she says as she, you know, Birdman hand rubs is is actually actually I, I, Jordan Hudson, want to be in this thing, too. And so if you go and watch the commercial, she's standing right next to him. And that's when I was like when I was watching the Super Bowl and I was like, is that because I'm like, you know, a creature of the Internet who's like paying attention to these details in ways that are unfortunately clinical at this point. I'm like, is that is that is that Jordan Hudson? It was. And that's why I was like, how did she get in this? And then you hear about how she's been his agent behind the scenes. She's the person, the membrane you got to deal with to get to Belichick now. And that was true of literally the height of Hollywood had to go through her. And so that she would do all this other stuff. um insinuating yourself into would-be commercials and sets and tapings and podcasts putting yourself in the commercial is crazy work it's a real thing so she's sort of she's sort of diddying i guess where you know in the if you don't want your producer be all in the videos all in commercials yes come to death row i guess the other to to understand you where you're coming from more

It's clear now, but I'm sort of using Alec Baldwin and Hilaria as a comp as well, where it's like, obviously Baldwin has had a few snags, murdering someone accidentally, etc., etc., going off yelling at his kids and stuff. Don't do that, Jason. He's free. His name is clear. Free the guys. Diddy and Alec Baldwin, both very free individuals that you've just named. That's true. You're forgetting my personal favorite, Kevin Spacey. Walking free. Walking free. Well, then we're putting Belichick in this category as well, where you've got this legendary kind of stoic king, does exactly what he wants and nothing that he doesn't want to, says fuck you to the press, is outgoing, outspoken, private, whatever he wants to do, he only does that. And then his legacy is sort of ruined in the 11th hour, in the fourth quarter of his life by a psycho chick. Tales all this time. And now he's got to do a podcast and a TV show and a this and a this and a book and a cookbook. Well, so what he then goes on to do after the media stuff is a failure. It's not good. It's in fact, by everybody's account who worked on these things, it was disastrous. And she was a big contributor to that for whatever it's worth. He goes and becomes the head coach at the University of North Carolina, the highest pay public employee in that state. But I want to return to the comparison you made, because Hilaria Hilaria is, I think, kind of the best parallel as I've been like surveying the world of age gap relationships, because Hilaria Baldwin is somebody who does not want people to know her actual deal. Yeah, I feel like that's journalistically sound to say, like, is she? Spanish? What's going on here? I'm going to say in a twisted bit of fate, I believe she's from Boston. Hilaria. That's why her Spanish heritage was in question. Bitch, you went to Nantucket in middle school every summer. We don't do that over here.

Hilaria Baldwin, born in Boston, Massachusetts. All roads lead back to Wooster. She's trying to sell you on the NEA word, and you're like, no, we know you're real. You're a real deal. We know you're real. I also wanted to talk to you about, because you did the thing that a lot of journalists do, where you write a story, and it becomes a whole thing, and then ESPN, you know. buys it from you basically to make the the television version and i think a lot of our listeners would be interested to know like what that process is like and how lucrative it is or is it more of a um for exposure type of relationship yeah are you referring to when i was at sports illustrate i wrote this story called broke or how my athletes yes yes because i i saw the i didn't obviously i didn't know you did but i remember watching the the 30 for 30 and It's a great story, and it's something that you heard whispers about forever, like those facts. It's a known thing. But I think that the process of taking that from a Sports Illustrated story, how involved is Sports Illustrated? How does it work on the back end? This is a really funny question that no one has asked, but has, I think, a lot to it, which I am actually very excited to just sort of describe for people who are curious. preface this by saying that i am now friends with billy corbin who's the director of broke um who's done cocaine cowboys and all this other stuff and he's terrific yeah yeah um but what was very funny was that um so i write this story for sports illustrator called how and why athletes go broke it's a 5 000 word story it's in fact the story i'd been pitching as the annoying fact checker in that story from before where i was like i got something for you guys and i'm like repeatedly just like chipping away at this thing in the back sort of in the on the back burner buzz off kid We got female lacrosse on at three. Yeah, exactly. Sound of typewriter clacking, and I am, like, thrown out of the office. That's truly, like, more or less what's happening. But I provide this thing, and I've exhaustively reported it, and it becomes, like, one of the most traffic stories in SI.com's whatever, like, tortured online history. Such that, at a certain point, I hear, I think, far through the production process of the 30 for 30 documentary, which would become broke, that my story was being adapted.

So I was not consulted on the front end. I had no idea. I was, frankly, kind of, like, aggrieved. When I heard about this, I was like, what the fuck? Like, this is clearly based on this thing that I toiled on for less than $40,000 a year. This was something that I – this was my only baby. Y'all got to break me off something. I'm barely getting by. Y'all got to break me off. You did good, kid. Give us another one. What else do you know? So it was more or less. Yeah, it was like that. And and at this point, this is now getting into 2012. I'd written the story, I believe, published in 09. And so by this point, as the production process is going, is proceeding a pace. It becomes clear to me that Sports Illustrated was not involved at all. I was not involved clearly at all. But 30 for 30 was really excited about this. And Billy Corbin was directing it. And it was funny because I remember. There were two things happening at the time when I was eventually asked, would I want to sit for this documentary about this story that I had written, which was, again, an insulting. You're like, yeah, I would actually have a lot to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much time you guys got? But it was it was number one. I was I was and anybody who's made a documentary knows this. At a certain point, you bring in like the talking head journalist for exposition where it's like, oh, we got to bridge this thing between these two things. We need someone to say facts. Let's get one of these fucking nerds in here. Let's get one of these pencil pushers in here to let this thing move this way along. I realized, oh, I'm playing that role here. So I can see the utility of it. And also, it made clear why I was being brought in towards the end. There are some holes to fill. So you're saying to me that you're not involved in this at all. They basically take your story, turn it into a 30 for 30. At the 25th hour, they call you to fill in some blanks and you're like, fuck it. It's I'm going to I'll do it. Well, here's the second thing that was happening was that in time, I don't think that this was at all coordinated. But parallel to this in 2012, where I am in my career is that I'm simultaneously being offered a job at ESPN. And so I'm being hired to work for ESPN the magazine and to do television for them, which I would do for the next 13 or so years. And so.

What was funny was that what would have been like a real soapbox of grievance for me to climb onto and perhaps litigate. I can't fuck up my new gig. I was like, my new gig. I'm actually going to get broken off something. And so I was actually quite happy that I got to whatever, like get paid and get a new job and also make them happy on the film side. And 30 for 30 was good to me after that and all that stuff. But wasn't great on the front end, admittedly. That's actually I didn't know that was. I mean, I guess it makes sense because technically Sports Illustrated owns the story, so they don't have to ask you for shit. But usually people want to go about it the right way and at least have the blessing. They were nice enough to throw you some lube before they fucked you. That's crazy. Not everyone gets that. That's a crazy story, but I guess it worked out because, like you said, you ended up having a long-term relationship with ESPN. It was sort of like they lubed me up on the back end. Let me use this as a teachable moment because there's a lot of... a lot of like everybody's stealing for me vibes on social media. And I think that maybe our generation is a little bit like, at least me personally, I'm like, no one's ever ripped me off because I've never had an original idea. Neither of you is kind of the way I look at it. Also fair, but I, but I like this. I like that you had the sort of, uh, foresight, whether it was on purpose or not to be like, you know what? This is not worth it because there's something bigger for me in the next year. And I'm just going to hold the line. And it worked out. I think. one market inefficiency which is very perhaps unsympathetic to advocate now and maybe we have the luxury of having existed long enough to say it but you should play perhaps uh true to the name of your show The long game. I guess I could try and get whatever I can now and burn a bridge, or I can see if I can use that bridge to... Yeah, getting $25,000 from ESPN one time and feeling good is not as good as being on TV for 13 years and cashing those checks. Yeah, I would have a Twitter thread in which people feel for me. But I'd rather...

But I think that's what a lot of people are looking for. And that's what's fucked up about the times we live in is that like it's it's about that instant gratification. And I mean, I'm guilty of it, too. Oh, no. But I think about this. You know, there are lots of it's funny to see the world through this lens because. And again, now working in independent media, as you guys do, the question is, like, how do you gin up public reaction or sympathy or, frankly, money? And the whole thing of like, can I be and again, God, I sound like fucking a real bootstraps immigrant parent now. But the question of like, how can I be the sympathetic victim in a story? It's like, yeah, I guess what happened to me at my media job? It's like you can do that at lots of moments. Every day I read that every day. I read how unfair this industry that I chose is to me because I'm not good enough. Again, huffing the exhaust pipes of Blacktown cars outside the Time, Inc. building. But like, yeah, we chose this. Like there's again, consensual concussions, right? Like we signed up for this part, too. I was not promised anything but feeling embittered. Frankly, all I looked at was people feeling embittered. Yeah, you will. You chose it because it's the only it was the only. path out and into what you wanted to do back back in you know 20 years ago same thing is you know the only way to become famous is get a music deal or signed to whatever and now thanks to independent content creation we can just if you're an ip machine and you got a new story every week why give it to some other company and maybe they're gonna fuck it up blah blah blah they don't care as much as you do you can hire a few of your friends get a little get the grok fired up And you're doing the whole thing yourself. And if the IP goes, then the IP is yours. I wonder if those stories are being mined on Substack the same way they're being mined from like New York Magazine or GQ. You know what I'm saying? I wonder if that's happened yet because I don't think that sort of – the problem with Substack, one of the many problems, is that it's not really a home for some of that rigorous reporting. That's not what it is. It's more of like a journal.

And that stuff is less valuable as far as IP goes, I think, than sort of the stuff you're talking about. I think it's changing. I think that's the original sort of feel for it. But I think now there's a little bit of everything. Oh, there definitely is. I just mean that, like, there's no, like, history of this. So it's going to take longer is what I'm trying to say. Like, the history of, like, we optioned a... book or a magazine story for a movie or a tv show is sort of like how the the ship was built and now there's this new thing where it's like a little bit harder it's honestly it's probably harder because you have someone that's independent and thinks that they're god's gift to the earth and they want a hundred million dollars whereas you know espn was probably or sports illustrators probably yeah give us 20 grand we'll make it work so oddly enough and i'm sorry you talked pablo oddly enough go doing the The New York Magazine story for $1,000 is playing the long game compared to putting it behind a paywall and making, you know, $30,000 a month on Substack and not having it turn into a big book deal or a movie deal or something. Well, so you just went where I was going to sort of like go, which is the tradeoff between paywalling and not is always just about like, do you want, again, they call it the funnel. Do you want the potential audience for your shit to be as big as possible? Or do you feel comfortable with the audience who've already acquired to just give you money directly? Which is why my very, I would say, I would call it my decreasingly original theory of the future of media is simply that we're all OnlyFans. And the question is like how much longer you want to fight that. Before you just realize I have X people who will give me Y per month, which is more than they would pay, by the way, a publication, which offers, you know, many, many multiples of footage of content. um i don't even have word on my shit tonnage yo bro they offer hella tonnage over at the new york times you're right you're right yeah no you're absolutely right no but that but that's it and so it's just sort of like you know um and and which now speaks to the incentive structure which we were just describing which can be unfortunate which is support me because you can basically hear the sarah mclaughlin underneath my words i need you to live um and that

Can create an incentive structure that is perverse and frankly inimitable or inimicable. Perverse both ways. But in both in both ways, it is not what. uh, and how I came up through whatever, not to sound like uphill both ways to school, but like, no, no, no. I mean, I think it's, I think you're absolutely right. It's, it is like a choice you make. Like, do I want the most possible people? Do I want to convert people? Or do I think that the dedicated, the few, the proud are enough to keep going? Am I willing to refuse some loads or is it no loads refused? Exactly. No, exactly. I mean, and that's what I, I just don't think that, um, I don't know. I pay for a lot of stuff, but then I don't expect anyone to pay for my stuff, which is my own twisted kind of head, you know, but I think that that's just like how I am and I've stopped fighting it. You know, I recently, the reason I am speaking to this so perhaps passionately is because I recently had this decision, Chris, where I was like, I have a sub stack. It's basically a newsletter where I say every episode of my show, which three times a week, I send you an email and it's like, this is what it is. And here's some like behind the scenes things, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at a certain point, I realized as I am in this independent Hobbesian, you know, like whatever state of nature, like I should just turn on. I should do the thing that people advise me, which is turn on the paid option. So see what happens. Exactly. So if people just want if people already feel sorry for you, let them give you money. Like literal patronage. It's sort of like if they want to. Please, sir. I need. To pay my midtown HOA fees. Please, sir, I live in a co-op building. Yes, is more or less what I'm saying. I think that's the best way to do it versus the restricting stuff. You're only going to hear five minutes of this podcast if you want to hear the other 55 you've got to pay. I think the way that you're doing it is the way that I think is the best way of true patronage if you really believe what I'm doing and you want to support it because you're a good person, boom.

let's leave that funnel a little more open but you're also offering something for the heads like if there's like behind yes you know i mean it's like that is that content is is specifically tailored to people that really care that in theory would want to pay and i need to figure out by the way this is also just a reminder like oh shit i should like figure out what am i giving people who like become a founding member you know like i say in a sarcastic voice but i need to become very earnest about because i should deliver on that you're gonna have to start doing cameo birthdays first and foremost honestly i'm not above it I am not above it. That sounds pretty, that sounds like efficient, relatively speaking. Okay. But the other thing, which I should be frank about, which is like the other reason to do it, a synonym for like keeping the funnel as wide as possible is also like the vanity of believing my shit should be appreciated by those who are not already in my audience. So like, please come and check out what I got. I think you'd like it. And so the more that you paywall your stuff, the more that your garden is walled. You know, I don't want it to be, you know, so much of a secret. I would like an accidental secret garden illusion, but I would like you to, you know, actually just come check it out. So there's vanity also in just the desire to grow. Totally, dude. I wouldn't call it vanity. I would call it discoverability. I think it's just. You know, I didn't know you worked at Spotify now. You got it. No, I mean, it's you got something you want to tell me. You're doing a general interest show that can appeal to a lot of people. If you're not talking about slices of life, you're talking about sports. You know, it's it's for everyone. A liberal arts version of sports is how I do it, which is like we'll talk about, you know, if you've listened to me talk enough on this. episode with you guys that i listened to the bird the bird watching episode this morning i appreciate you doing that thank you i didn't listen to anything i think that you're um great i think that you what you're doing is is much much more appealing to a wide audience than like what we're doing you know what i mean i think like

Not with that attitude. No, but I just think that it's just two different things. It's not like we have a pretty wide audience and we're happy to have it and hopefully it continues to grow. But I think that you're right. A liberal arts approach to sports, that is a huge swath of society. Which is why when I – sorry for interrupting. When I texted my brother, hey, do you know Pablo? Let me know, whatever. He sends me a screenshot of my text on his phone while he's listening to your podcast. So, you know, that answered it. Oh, I love it. In terms of liberal sports enjoyers, my brother and I are there for you. No, look, it warms the discoverability of my heart to know that. It's also genuinely, when it comes to sports, right, what's my thesis around sports? Why is it something that I... started off kind of like reflexively being like am i apologizing for being in the toy department am i like trying to make this sports for non-sports fans i just realized that at a certain point because everything to even further sound like a powerpoint deck at spotify because everything is so fragmented and siloed and because nothing is discoverable really anymore because search is broken and twitter deactivated links or whatever the fuck else Sports is just this, and I say this all the time, it is the closest thing we have to, like, anything vaguely monocultural. And so if I can use these characters that you may be vaguely aware of as if I'm, you know, Disney rebooting The Mandalorian, like, hey, you know, you heard of this thing? Here's another thing you might enjoy. Well, like, that's something that I should probably strategize around as opposed to, like, apologize for. I mean, the Bill Belichick, I don't give a fuck about football, but I know all about that story. Because it is like a general interest in a lot of ways. And if you want to follow some of those threads, I'm sure you can get deeper into it. When I was listening to the bird watching episode, you know, you probably had a dozen sports analogies in there. You know, a dozen, you know, this is your Jordan v. Bird moment or whatever it might be. I just made that up. I was going to say, I should have used that, actually. That's a real.

It seems like the most popular podcast or any media thing is the sports analogy is going to move the most chains, I should say. There you go, Jason. There you go. Jason said, I'm getting on board with this shit. He is pantomiming throwing a football. Two more quick questions before I leave you. On that specific subject, I was thinking yesterday, I was listening to your pod. doing a hot girl edible walk and i was thinking about our podcast about like what exactly chris and i talk about and it's a it's a little slice you know it's like where we went to lunch and then like gay fashion stuff and you know a little bit of this a little bit of that you're doing a show about sports and then i'm thinking about like you know political podcasts are like at the top news that kind of stuff i wanted to have you rank podcast subject categories by average income potential oh wow wow you don't have i mean i don't need 10 but maybe no well are we talking let me let me let me take this question very seriously are you talking audio only you're talking about video podcasting because that informs my draft picks i'll stick with audio only i would say that something that i have not done enough But I'm tempted by as I also am doing like a bunch of political news stuff at MSNBC and I've become a creature over there in that ecosystem is like, man, I I should preface this by saying I don't like Donald Trump, but I think I am incentivized to really, really, really express that way more often than I do already. I just think that in terms of the lane, like something that I laugh at all of the time is the whole like Joe Rogan needs. The left needs their own Joe Rogan. And I'm like, oh, oh, OK. So what does that involve? And I'm like, so you want someone who's going to say politically the things that are validating to the left, which, again, I naturally am probably going to do intuitively, not all ways, but often, I guess, statistically speaking. But then it's also like use sports and you like.

do i just like lead with mma but then backdoor just like but here's my thing about the big beautiful bill well we we try to do we we always actively try to become the the joe rogan of the left the the basic rule of thumb is say fuck i say fuck the police but also call people gay yeah you have to really swim in both waters and they're like okay I could deal with this. You know what I mean? Yeah. What I'm saying is that the podcast category that is most profitable for me personally that I have yet to seize upon is just like, what if I podcasted like I was still at my all boys Catholic high school? I feel like that's actually the demo that the left needs. And I'm also happy to call things gay if it means I'm saving gay people in real life. Damn, would you look at it like that? Well put, Pablo. That's pro shit right there, Jason. That's why we're not on TV. That's why we're not on TV. No, no, I led this prize horse to the water. Pablo took a big old gulp. Pablo, he put a little in his little satchel for me later, though. He's a nice guy. And last one, and then we're going to leave you on this episode. And it just reminded me, you hired a... vocal impersonator off of Cameo to do an impression of David Attenborough, and I wanted to know if you've heard the David Attenborough very... There's some tea about his life and legacy that is very bad, and I want to see if you knew about it. Oh, wow. Don't ruin his fun. Don't ruin his fun. Wait, hold on. As someone who paid untold hundreds of dollars for a guy whose name is Guy on Cameo to be David Attenborough... But you gave him a shout-out. That should have been pro bono. I have a lot to learn from you guys now that I realize. Let me be your manager. No, not a bad idea. No, you did the right thing by paying an independent creator. Okay, at the risk of finding out something at the end of your show, which is the real reversal of fortune for me. What has he done? Okay, you know the... Also, hold on, hold on. We need to be clear. This is all hearsay. This is rumor. I have no proof. This is just... I've heard it from a couple people. If Sir David Attenborough was listening, I am merely...

absorbing i am not cosigning of course of course of course yeah apparently the bbc is aware of attenborough having a jimmy saville like situation and they're waiting for him to pass before this story becomes public whoa whoa okay um i mean you don't have to comment on it i was just like oh i wonder if he's heard the story because i've heard it from a couple people as somebody who has now very subtly wikipedia'd jimmy saville While you've been saying that, I'm going to store that away in the in the old mental Dewey decimal system. How long on listeners can Google what did Jimmy Savelle do wrong? And or I think there's a Netflix documentary on it. Well, I think I think I think to summon the term tonnage, it does apply here in a way that. Yeah. Well, well, well, well observed. I'm good to know. Good to know. Just something to think about. Copy that. Something to think about. Pablo, thank you for joining us. And your show, you said your show is three times a week? Three times a week. Impressive. Welcome to the club, brother. We love that. Welcome to the club. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for joining us. It was a pleasure. You guys go listen to Pablo's podcast. Pay for his services. Whatever those may be. Follow him on Substack. Yeah, yeah. We appreciate you taking the time. You're a good podcaster. The time just zips by with you, so we'd love to have you back on again one day. Love a pro. Anytime I listen to you guys, and it's funny to go from parasocial creep to... So thank you. Yeah, participant creep. Yeah, it's great. As long as you listen to the ads, nothing creepy going on at all. I don't give a shit what you do. Let me tell you guys, the Pablo Torre finds out promises that I will always listen to your ads. Thank you for that. That's a big and that's a nice cosign. We need that from you. Even the DraftKings ad? Especially. Especially your incredibly... Incredible. He's like, I need a little hit of DraftKings. I can't do it myself, but I need a little hit. So I want that old thing back. All right, Pablo, thank you for taking the time. My pleasure, guys.