740. - Jonathan Ames

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Coming to you live from the epicenter of the Santa Ana winds. Jason, the trees are swaying. People are covering their eyes, walking down the street. There's fires. Is this the end for us? It's another day in Cali, bro. Sound like a fucking pussy. Just kidding. I just closed my office window because it was too loud. kind of Hurricane Alley over here in Glendale. It's a little different over in WeHo, I'm assuming? No, it's not great. I mean, I did get an email alerting me that the Equinox West Hollywood was shutting down due to wind, which I would love some more explanation on because I don't think the wind should affect the indoor gym. I was going to ask, is the WeHo location an indoor offering? Yeah, it's all outside. No, it's also like... It's not like it's on the 50th floor of a fucking skyscraper. You know what I mean? It's a two-story building on Sunset Boulevard. Right, right, right. And the second floor is mostly just floor Pilates. It seems manageable. Yeah, it seems odd. It seems a little bizarre. I did lose some bougainvillea on one of our statement walls. Okay. Okay, are you good? Do you need me to come over? Are you going to be okay? No, I'm not good. No, I'm not good.

So this tragedy is affecting you personally. This time it's personal. Oh, yeah. I mean, and also as a content creator, you're only as strong as your Wi-Fi signal. And, you know, I would say over under on this podcast, making it one hour. I don't think that's true. It's as likely as Emilia Perez winning the golden. Oh, my God, they did win. Never mind. What? I wish I knew what that movie was about, but I've seen a lot of discourse about it because I guess it's like... No one's ever heard of it. It's pro-trans, and so people are mad. Basically, people are like, well, you can't criticize it and say it's bad if you're gay or trans. And I'm like, well, no, you definitely can. I would say that is the definition of equality, which is something that I strive for every single day. We've got to judge everyone on a fair-ish scale. Great, cool people make bad stuff sometimes, and if you encourage them, then it's not going to help anyone. Sometimes a great person makes a dumb movie. Happens hourly here in California, actually. Well, that's, yeah, especially since movies are mostly bad. But I've learned a lot about Hollywood since the Golden Globes on Sunday. I learned that the brutalists that everyone keeps talking about has only made $1 million. So no one's actually seen that three-hour monstrosity that has a fucking intermission, which is pretty shocking. But as friend of the show, David Cho pointed out in the most nerd tone I could imagine from a text message, the per screen. dollar amount is going absolute bananas okay so just let me tell you how much i care let me tell you how much i care about per screen i i don't really i just i mean i'm sure it's good it's just it's truly shocking that it is it has made that little amount of money i know right and it makes you wonder because they were i was listening to a friend of the show matt belany's pod um the town which is our favorite hollywood industry insider info pod whatever and he was saying that this year

was the first year at the Golden Globes where they had a literal scoreboard for movie studios. Loved it. So I have that in the back of my mind as like, this feels wrong, and it feels, you know, I mean, it is cool in some ways, but it also kind of just feels like an auction, like a livestock auction where everyone is just wheeling out their fattest heifers. I mean, that's what it is. I know, but there used to be a little mystique. A little mystery, a little fun, a little romantic. Like, hey, we're here to support and enjoy and celebrate the arts, not a bunch of guys in Century City who put some great deals together. But those are the guys who actually matter, unfortunately. I mean, yeah, one needs the other. But I had that in the back of my mind. And then Cho talking about – he kept talking about how, yeah, it's all about securing the awards. Like it's not about making – I thought it was about making money. And originally it was about making good art that will stand the test of time last centuries and be loved by millions forever. And then I realized it's about the money. And now everyone seems to be really focused on winning awards. I think it's still about the money. I mean, let's not get it twisted. Of course. I feel like this year, specifically 2025, there seems to be a real like. People have algorithms and equations of dollars spent versus awards won as if a golden globe is going to keep the lights on. Well, you'll get to do it again. It doesn't hurt, obviously. Well, you'll get to do it again, and you'll have longer to do it and more money to do it. I see why it's so important. The statue is a little more runway. I thought the leaderboard was really funny. should exist at every award show because it it takes it really takes the piss out of the whole thing in a way that i think people actually like because it's like these fucking hollywood like who cares like fuck these people i would say if i was ever uh an actor or anybody who would be famous enough to be invited to this or even maybe nominated for this if that's what it's all about then why do we need the celebrities there

Because the camera has to have something to cut to. And if the celebrities don't wear clothes on the red carpet, no one watches it at all. I mean, it's like all the awards. It's like all the awards that they give away before the telecast. I'm saying if I was a celeb, that would be my fight song. That would be my form of silent protest. That would be my Luigi. I like that you think that these celebrities have a choice whether they go to this or not. It's in their contract. I had a feeling you were going to bring up that angle. I had a feeling you were going to bring that angle up. They don't have much of a choice. I'm sure some do. I'm sure Al Pacino goes and does what he wants to do, but I don't think... the fucking America Ferreira has a choice whether she goes to an award show if she's lucky enough to be nominated. I'm just happy to be nominated. You know that, Jason. I'm just happy to be nominated. I'm happy for our work to get recognized. I don't want to offend you. Your accent is pristine. Is it Dominican or is it Puerto Rican? I couldn't tell. I never thought I would feel bad for Kylie Jenner. It was sort of like you're, you know, you know, when you're like in high school at the Thanksgiving family dinner, this has never happened to me, but it happens on TV and other people's lives who have families and stuff. But like when you're like, not yet. Yeah, of course. An adult table. Yeah, of course. But you're still, you know, eating Cheerios type of shit. I've lived that before. I mean, I don't know if. I felt bad because she has like multiple kids and like a billion dollars and she's still not respected. Yeah, bro, because she's in the wrong place. She goes to the fucking mall. She'll be respected. She goes to fucking. She goes to get a hand roll in Calabasas. She'll be respected. You ain't going to be respected in a room full of actors. I'm good at any sushi park in the world, bitch. I'm good at any sushi park. That's literally there's only one. OK, if she goes to Dubai, she's good. Good. But anywhere else, it's not really. Yeah. I mean, they ain't checking for her like that. And rightfully so. I think it's kind of like everybody should be. I often need to get put in my place. And Kylie Jenner is no different. You know what I mean? Like she needs to be.

She needs to be reminded that tonight is about her man and his portrayal of Bob Dylan, and that's what's important here. I would say cue Blink-182. I guess this is growing up. This is growing up. Friend of the show, Chris Black, as well as friend of the show, Kylie Jenner. They both could benefit from a slice of humble pie every now and again. Isn't that right, brother? I love a slice of humble pie. I put a scoop of ice cream on top. We all need it. I think about it all the time. But I don't need it quite as much as Kylie Jenner. Do you know what humble pie is? Humble pie. I know what the phrase means. I don't know what the actual pie tastes like, if that's what you're asking. It was. I was hoping for notes. No, I don't know what that means. Or what it tastes like, I guess. Go to the diner. Order the humble pie. Yeah, have a cigarette. Have a beer. Oh, God. Order the humble pie. Have a beer is so fucking funny. That's really funny. I guess on the subject of food a little bit, even though it's fictional, friend of the show, All Syrup, No Squish, the food meme account, he sent me a message saying, the streets need to know if Bradley Cooper's disrupting the sandwich space is the culinary version of Paris Hilton DJing to me. In many ways, yes. I only know... very little about I know a lot about Paris Hilton DJing who knew that she was going to be the most chill person out of all the celebrity DJs but what's up with Bradley doing is it cheese I've heard it's good what is what kind of food is it it's cheese steaks and I've heard it's good I've now I've not been obviously but I think he merely I think he partnered with someone who's a well-known figure in the cheese the cheesesteak space and they did they developed the concept together i think it's pretty funny this in the east village uh because that means they're catering to drunk people so it doesn't have to be quite as good right i'm saying yeah um but i i i appreciate bradley branching out using his money for good because nothing new york needs more than a cheesesteak place but uh i guess

In terms of the Paris Hilton DJing analogy, is this hurting small businesses who are trying to just get in? Is there a better concept going to a better person who needs it and deserves it more? Opening a restaurant is stupid, so you should let the celebrities do it so you don't lose your house. You know what I mean? Bradley Cooper can lose a couple million dollars on a cheesesteak venture, and he's going to wake up the next day and feel good. Some of y'all can't do that. I can't do that. I wonder if it will reach that thing because, like, you know, there's the – I think they made a joke about it on the Golden Globes about, you know, the point of all this is not art. It's to get a tequila company and never have to work again. Yeah, there's a little bit of that going on. But also, you know, in the podcast space during COVID, every celebrity had their own show. Obviously, you know, the good stuck around and the bad left quietly into the night. Is there going to be a time where every celebrity, every dumbass, you know, the situation from the situation to Maria Abramovich? Is everyone going to have their own fat sals or whatever that they hang their hat on to? No, because this is this is also very indie sleaze as well. It's very Ashton Kutcher got a piece of this, you know, Thai steakhouse or whatever. It's not. But there's no there's no money to be made. That's the problem. Tequila, you could actually get rich. Opening a restaurant is very unlikely to work out no matter if you're famous or not. Yeah, but it's it's but I don't think these I think if you're a celeb, it's like, hey, we're just going to pair you like a like a classic CAA pairing. We got the chef. We got the restaurant concept. Totally. We got the celebrity. Put them all together. Bradley Cooper, you know, he may have come out of pocket for this because he believes in it. But, you know, is there a situation where, you know, whoever they just Charlie XCX just gets, you know, 10 percent of sales for being. the spokesperson for this restaurant or whatever. Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah, that, that could happen, but let's hope it doesn't. Cause those Ashton Kutcher restaurants suck. No shots at Wilmer Valderrama. Of course. In the, in the way that, you know, similar to a Bella Hadid, can you fork deal? You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. Uh, we do have a guest today, uh, author, um, et cetera. Jonathan Ames, uh, is joining us. I think he's in New York.

It looks New York-ish. Or maybe it's L.A. Are you getting blown away, Jonathan? I'm not getting blown away at the moment. I can see the wind out the window. Okay, so you're with us physically. Okay, all right. So Jonathan is here. Let's give him a jingle, and we're going to talk about weather for the next hour. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. If you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash howlong for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, even on a nice holiday, now available in Canada. That is quince.com slash howlong. That'll get you free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash howlong. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues. Obviously. Maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded.

Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. I'm physically not being lifted off.

Like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz or something. Because I've gotten some alarming emails today from places like Equinox, you know, saying they're closing because of wind, which feels a little extreme to me in West Hollywood. I don't know how you feel about that. Equinox. I actually just joined Equinox. First time I've joined a gym in like, I don't know, maybe 20 or more years. The gone effect. What was the reasoning? I very luckily spent like a lot of the last five months in Malibu swimming in the ocean. And I just so enjoyed swimming in the ocean every day. And I'm like, I've got to keep this going. And then I got somehow got an email from Equinox, realized it was just down the street and initiation fee waived. And I don't know. Are you guys both in LA? Yeah, I'm in LA right now. Jason's in LA all the time, but I... I don't know if Equinox is going to compare to swimming in the ocean in Malibu every day, but hopefully it'll produce the same level of endorphins. Is that what you're looking for? Yeah, it may be not the same level, but it's approaching homeopathically a small dose of that level. And they have all these towels with eucalyptus on it. Yes, sir. I just had no idea that so many people were exercising. It's like a revelation to me. There's so many people in there. care about their bodies and their lives. It's remarkable. Do you experience any 1980s resurgence? Like you were around during the aerobics boom of the 80s, health is wealth, no pain, no gain, all that stuff. Is this similar to that or is this trumping that? Don't say that. Anyway, sorry. I was going to ask, is that why you joined the gym? voted in for the second term yeah sorry i want to be strong for the madness that's coming perhaps anyway let's let's not go there it's hard to storm anything without that core strength i've noticed you do need that be it a capital or a treadmill yeah so in terms of whether it feels like the 1980s i'm more like

1970s back of a comic book buying a chest expander you know something like that and seeing those like little cartoons of those guys looking strong and i may have even ordered one of them um so my exercise stuff goes back to then i remember jane fonda being popular and the leggings and all that but i wasn't a part of that But now I am part of some – I mean, I think people – I've just been out of it. I guess people have been exercising all along. But I'm just glad to see that so many people, at least while they're in the gym, are not behaving self-destructively unless they're over-exercising perhaps. Depending on the location, there's definitely some self-destruction going on. But I would agree with you that overall it is a positive. But, yeah, people are exercising. But I think it's probably – Jason, you would agree. It's like peaking. It feels maybe bigger than ever in our lifetime, I would say. Why do you guys think it's peaking or more? Why are people exercising more? Well, because people are partying less. So it's like, what else are you going to do, I think, is part of it. And I also think people want to live longer. I don't know if that's good or bad. And also social media is telling us that we need to be in better physical health. Yeah. And yeah, like Chris said, less partying, post-COVID, nobody goes out, alcohol sales down, marijuana sales, mental health, physical health. testosterone, peptides, all that shit, you know. Alcohol down, all those other things up. Okay, that's good to know for the investors in the audience. Yeah, we're moving more into the cannabis and psilocybin space for 2025, Jonathan. And speaking of cannabis, I want to know whose house you were staying at in Malibu all summer, brother. I thought some things were going to happen, which didn't. Anyway, fine. You know, the vicissitudes of Hollywood, whatever. But I had a little extra cash for a moment, thought more would be coming in, which turned out not to be the case. And I don't know. I just I always love being at the beach.

and my whole life as a kid sure our big vacation once a year was like a week at the jersey shore in a motel and actually the first two days of the seven or the three days i would get terribly burnt like i don't know there wasn't sunblock back then and you look you look fair complexion wise you do look susceptible yeah i was susceptible to like three third degree jersey shore burns and i'd be like lying in bed fried My father would be sitting on the edge of the bed smoking a cigar, trying to be soothing. And I had no means at that time to be like, the cigar smoke is not helping with the fact that I am trapped in sizzled skin. Silence, boy. Nevertheless, I love the ocean. And so I rented this small apartment for five months. And I swam every day and snorkeled. And it was a real beautiful beach. you know idyllic how long did you how long did you stay there like did you did you come back to LA when you had to or you were you like there for five five months I came back when I had to and I like I had to do like the audiobook recording of my novel so I came back for three or four days and I was sort of like trying to do this thing that wow I've got a place I could go on the weekend but it was so amazing that I just stayed out there my girlfriend and I and so it was great i loved it and but then it ended and i don't have the means to rent it anymore and then i got This fortuitous email from Equinox, which I keep wanting to pronounce Equinox, which is, I don't know, stupid. No, I would say either work. It's a real Los Feliz, Los Feliz, Los Feliz situation. It can really go either way. I used to live over in Franklin Hills, which is Los Feliz or Los Feliz. No, Los Feliz. I haven't actually said that word out loud.

in a while, but I used to live next to Hyperion, and I think I'm mispronouncing Hyperion. You are. You're adding a little flair to it. You're adding a little flair to the end. Well, I would argue that you, as a person, a wordsmith, are pronouncing it literally perfect, and everyone else is sort of fucking it up. And then when you correct them, they're like, shut up, nerd. You're a loser. It's Hyperion. Hyperion. Yeah. So you are in the right. Okay, cool. Not to worry. So you used to be like a Franklin, Hyperion, Los Files, Beachwood kind of cat in the 90s? Well, no. I moved to L.A. 10 years ago. Okay. I was in New York for most of my life and New Jersey. And, yeah, so I was over in Franklin Hills. Hyperion and Hillhurst were my kind of... Domain, Vermont also, to the Los Angeles listeners. Most of it takes place, this book that I'm holding up right here, A Man Named Doll. I was like, damn, this is really just taking me back to when I was in my early 20s living right over there. I miss the swing dancing movement. I wish you were there for that. Yeah, I don't think I ever swing danced. I once attended, I think this was in the 80s, a contra dance gathering at a church. um there's a lot of stomping i'm not familiar with contra dance if you i don't i don't i don't know either please explain oh well i mean i can't google in the moment but it's well actually swing dance well swing dance is more formal right it's sort of like ballroom stuff right so i i got confused from a there was a craze i think in the 80s and and 70s of Sort of like country dancing. So contra dancing is like a lot of... It's like river dance. It's like a form of country dance. It's like you line up in a row and you stomp and clap and, you know, that kind of thing. Okay. Yeah, there's a lot of lining up and stomping. It's very Scottish, English-leaning. Yeah, and there's probably something that happens to the brain when you all stomp together. It's like, you know, in the same way, you know, we eat together because we have the same chemicals happening. That's how the whole tradition of eating together, because then you...

You get on the same chemical plane. That's probably why bars are popular. I mean, not according to you guys. They're on the downward trend. I think if you go to some places, bars have been unaffected by the rise in wellness trends. I think in Tacoma, you can still belly up any night of the week, and it's going to be full of your fellow drinkers. A good bar is a good bar. Tacoma backwards is Ammo Cat. Sometimes I see words backwards. But that's neither here nor there. Don't flex. Are you dyslexic? No, I'm probably the opposite of dyslexic. Like flex backwards is XL. Okay, this is impressive. I see how you get laid now. I see how you get laid now. Okay, you know, the four-letter word. Four-letter words, less impressive, Jonathan. Let's do some. What's that Hyperion looking like? Can we blast that one real quick? Noir. Noir. Noir. Oh, you put some sauce on that, too. Sounds like Yiddish. Yeah. And Jason Stewart is Trowett's No Satch. Chris Black is DeKalb Cirque. I'm sure you guys know that because you look in the mirror and say your names backwards. You know that famous French film, Stolen Kisses? And it was part of that series. I forget the famous filmmaker. It might have been Truffaut, and he had that guy, Alain Delon, or maybe not Alain. I'm screwing everything up. In the age of Google, well, now actually fact-checking is out, we heard, right? We don't fact-check on this podcast, don't we? A 1968 French romantic comedy directed by Francois Truffaut, starring Jean-Pierre. Yeah, good quick Google there. Anyway, there's a moment in that film where he looks in the mirror, he's trying to build up his confidence, and he's saying his name. Alain Douineau, Alain Douineau, Alain Douineau. Like he's psyching himself up by saying his own name. So I had this image for a moment, you two guys saying your names backwards in the mirror, which is totally wrong. But Jason, are you standing on a platform? It's like your head looks like it's about to be hit by that fan. I'm standing on the ground. Really? I'm a standing desk, yeah.

Oh, but it must be a low-ceilinged room. He's very tall. He's very tall. It's also the angle, but yeah, I'm 6'9". But I'm touching the ceiling right now. Holy smokes. Yeah, you are touching the ceiling. Damn, okay. Well, that makes sense. His office is more of a funhouse vibe. That's really what he's going for. There's a lot of weird mirrors in there. It's weird. It's a twisted little shack. Where in L.A. are you both at the moment? So I live in Glendale. Chris lives in New York. full-time but he's uh he's in west hollywood right now as we speak okay i wonder is it my equinox that was threatening to close it's a it's the west hollywood it's the gayest location west hollywood okay mine is in hollywood on uh oh yeah argyle which is a very raymond chandler address like in and my books are all set like you know it's like hollywood and vine like i'm i'm not like i'm not going to equinox i'm not like Talking to dames and, you know, flicking a cigarette onto the sidewalk. So I met this broad on the old Cosmo and Ivar alleyway, see? Yeah. Down on Selma. I like that. I like you say eucalyptus towel in that voice. It really brings it all together. So I put a eucalyptus towel on my face after my workout, and I went outside and was in bed by night. Equinox pro tip. You can just take that. When you're on the way out, grab one of the towels from the refrigerator. It's nice that they're cold on a hot summer day. Wrap them around the neck like a scarf and then walk straight out the front door with confidence. You're able to build up a pretty good stock of... You know, washing the car, you know, little rags around the house. It's nice. Yeah, I don't need a pound of flesh when they're charging you. Yeah, well, it's actually not that much money. And I had the initiation. I don't know if I would feel comfortable, to be honest, stealing the washcloth. But I do something very similar. I get coffee at the Oaks on Franklin and whatever Canyon. And when I get a coffee there, they have this big thing of like.

recycled napkins, not dirty napkins, you know, but made from brown paper. And I grab a lot and I'm like, I got all these napkins in a drawer. I really feel like I got a savings. I mean, I try to use napkins that you wash, but I don't end up washing them. And it's mostly just like wiping my face with something that's like pretty old and crusted. So I grab all these recycled napkins from the Oaks, like you stealing the washcloths from Equinox. Well, I mean, I just gave you your solution. I've got so many washcloths. Oh, yeah, I could use those as napkins. So right next to me is a sauna. That's a sauna? It's a sauna, yeah. It looks like one of those Murphy beds. I mean, is that like a sauna where you just stand there like there's no room to sit? All the perspective with this camera is off. It's a two-seater sauna. It has Bluetooth speakers. I can watch movies, TV. There's an infrared light. It's real snazzy. Since I'm so tall, I only go in solo, though. But I'm just saying, start stealing washable fabric towels. No more recyclable napkins. Also, Equinox is a giant corporation. The Oaks is a small business for local thoughts and to get cheese and wine. I can't believe you would steal from a small business, Jonathan. I know. I'm like, their nap. Their napkin expense, they're like, why are we losing so much money on napkins or something? The P&L looks bad after you go. They're installing a ring camera above the napkins right now just to catch you. I actually only take two or three, but I don't need that many, just to make it clear. But it's cool that you're into saunas. That's like one of my biggest hobbies in life is I go to the Russian baths over on Santa Monica Voto Spa. in new york i basically lived at the 10th street baths which is why i never went to a gym like the baths were my gym because you know if you sweat your heart is doing a lot and you're changing your water that's how i think of it and our brains are made mostly of water and so it's good to go in these things and sweat and then i would do some

A little bit of yoga if it wasn't too crowded. What kind of sauna is that? Infrared? Yeah, infrared. Afterwards, I'll send you a link to it, but I really like changing your water. I'm writing that down right now for something. Yeah, this is hitting close to home because I heard an unconfirmed report yesterday from my friend Ash saying that higher dose, which is the New York kind of... infrared spa place has closed their original location in the Howard hotel. And this leaves me sauna lists for the, for the near future. Oh, go to the 10th street baths, man. It's classic. And you get great Russian food. Jonathan, I've been there, but I've been there before. Not my flavor. No, not my flavor. I like to be alone. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my whole thing back when I lived in New York, I'd get there around eight 30 closes like at nine 30. And I feel like you only need an hour to 45 minutes. If you don't take a lot of breaks. And and it was usually pretty empty then. Yeah. But I hear you. It's good to be. Well, that's good. You've got your own closet sauna that you can just be alone in. You should get one of these infrareds. That's I mean, honestly, definitely in the closet. That's where I get all my reading done. Well, and speaking of that, Chris, I would say, Jonathan, showing up to the the bathhouse, the final hour of the day. Isn't that sort of, you know, risky territory? I mean, is that getting into a little in terms of germs or what? No, in terms of hand jobs and in terms of sexual behavior. Oh, well, no, I don't like why is the last hour more risk for that? There was a guy at the Russian baths who gave massages. I have a good answer for you, Jonathan. I'll let you finish. I never saw any of that, to be honest, all my years there. There were like private rooms. And but there was like some guy, I guess he was one of the professional masseurs there. And I guess I don't know. He he must have been really taking liberties with a lot of people over the decades. And finally, it reached a boiling point.

Anyway, but he was a – I never got a massage from him. So you're saying he would give a massage and maybe get a little – he would go into areas maybe he shouldn't have gone into, and after a while, the people got fed up. Yeah, but it took a long time, though. Well, it takes – I guess there have been so many – It takes everyone different amounts of time to reach their boiling point, Jonathan, okay? We're all different, and we're all built in our different ways. And I like the way you use the word boiling point in terms of – ejaculation related stuff but i brought that up because in i used that or did chris use that no you said boiling point i would never i was like oh i can't reach my boiling point tonight you know what i mean my dementia is um kicking in it's like it's like i'm forgetting things from five seconds ago all right go ahead yes that's what we're here for in your book a man named doll it there there's a you know the the main character works at a kind of Thai massage place, seedy spot in Hollywood. Never been to a place like that ever. But he mentions that he's hired as a security guard because at the end of the night, people show up, they get a little drunk, maybe they're a little loaded, they get a little handsy. That's when the action goes down. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, he was the security guy. Yeah, that's true. I did postulate that, not based on any knowledge, really. And I don't even know if these places have security guys. But I thought that would be, you know, a good job for a P.I. who's kind of down and out, like, you know, that he's a security guard at a massage place. That's, you know, not like, you know, it's not like that guy Sugar and, you know, the Colin Farrell TV. So, you know, he's not wearing fancy clothes. He's he's a down and out P.I. in that first book. And just since I'm here. The new one in that series, the third book in that series, is coming out next week, Karma Doll. So the first one was A Man Named Doll. The second one was The Wheel of Doll. And the third one is Karma Doll. He increasingly gets into Buddhist philosophy as the books progress as a way to try to deal with all his confusion and the violence in his life. What is your level of understanding of the Buddhist faith? Did you have to do a lot of...

personal research? Well, first of all, I've done a lot of reading about Buddhist philosophy or books by Buddhist philosophers. I don't see it so much personally as a faith, as a philosophy, because there's not necessarily a deity. And the Buddha is the original great teacher, but they would feel that many of the teachers are, you know, trying to have a Buddhist spirit. And yes, I've read a lot of books about and I've taken great comfort in reading those books. I've learned a lot, mostly, which is that we're just so many things, but just a few pithy things. You know, we are what we think. You know, it's so important to control our negative thinking, our looping, our obsessing. And if you're engaging in all that all the time or anger. It shapes who you are. Another thing is taking responsibility for everything in your life. Everything going on begins with you. So it's like not at all about being a victim, which is interesting for a private investigator because he's helping people that sometimes do get victimized, but they might bring upon through their choices. dark things that happen to them so yeah i've read i've read a lot of stuff i read a lot of dalai lama i just love it i find it very soothing sort of become a practice to try to read just one or two pages every morning as a way to sort of change my thinking sort of like changing my water in the baths like buddhism has changed my thinking um and sort of realizing that you know there is uh there's a great I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Buddhist term, samsara, is basically doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. And we're all in all sorts of samsaric situations. And so to try to undo, you know, what Einstein called insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, you liberate yourself and maybe wake up. Buddha or Buddhism means to wake up.

You're trying to wake up to the suffering that you cause yourself. Sorry if that's negative for a podcast. No, no, no. Chris needed to hear all of that, so I think that was great, Jonathan. You guys are two sides of one brain, so I like when you're able to come. I'm going to definitely try to take down a couple Buddhist pages every morning, level myself out before I hit the mean streets of New York. I think that would really... Help me in the new year. Yeah. You know, there's some really very accessible writers like I'm sure you've heard of Tich Nahan or Pema Chodron or the Dalai Lama's great books. I've been reading this one guy named Ekneath Esawaran. I think he's Hindu, but he writes. No, wait. Don't read the name backwards. Read it forwards so our listeners can pick it up. S-O-R-N. That's not Nora. I can't say that backwards. I can't because I can barely say it forward, to be honest. But I do like. That's a tough one. I finally stumped him. You met your match. I like his first name, though, Eknea. Though I think actually it's like his second name. But anyway, on we go. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung, TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world,

is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code. How long? Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina. Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. So other than your sauna lifestyle, swimming in the Mother Pacific, cleansing you, changing your water, your brain, Buddhism. I also want to know what your relationship is with drugs, specifically marijuana. And in your humble opinion, if you were to mix marijuana and alcohol together, what would be the ideal amounts of substances and what types, please? I feel like you know how to ride that line. Well, let's see. Let's see.

Mr. Burns mode right now. What a great character Mr. Burns is, though. I mean, what a tormented figure and the way he's drawn and then his little assistant. Anyway, all these things are so great. That's why it's probably lasted so long. These characters are like straight out of id archetypes. all of them i agree uh let's see with alcohol well i'm older now and i can't seem to tolerate alcohol at all i used to drink too much at different times and then i would get sober that there's a buddhist notion of um mistaking pain for pleasure you keep you know i was running from myself for years and alcohol is a way to run from yourself and you also you know you talked about social media telling you guys be healthy go to the gym you know We have all this language of the world saying drink. It's a way to connect with others. It's romantic. It's cool. It's, you know. Take a load off. It's Humphrey Bogart. It's Charles Bukowski. It's, you know, the round table. It's Dorothy Parker. But alcohol is a poison that affects every organ of the body negatively. So I'm at the point in my life where I really can't. absorb that much alcohol i got a little bit of red wine with uh a meal and i might still be under the sway of that huge advertising stuff that went down a while ago like red wine is good for you you definitely are you don't you're susceptible to that too i find that french red wine they probably have less chemicals does not create much hangover at all i just i get so hung over i can't drink alcohol at all there was a time when i used to love to smoke weed and drink and like take a hit of a joint and blow the smoke into like a shot or a glass of tequila and then drink the tequila with the smoke and just now we're talking

and be elsewhere, you know, oblivion of sort, or momentary oblivion, a glimpse of nirvana. And nirvana, in Buddhist terms, is a place absent of labels, though, where there's no good or bad, right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. It's the connection of everything. That's why Buddhism is really into the lotus flower, because the idea is that you need the mud. to have the flower. We need our confusion and the mistakes we make to get to places of greater clarity and less suffering, causing ourselves less suffering and causing others to suffer less. So anyway, but now I, you know, I still indulge in cannabis. It doesn't have much impact on me because of maybe having smoked a fair amount off and on over the years. Your tolerance level has increased. So I, as the character says, it's kind of like a placebo. But again, even, you know, there are karmic consequences for anything we do that might be out of balance. So putting a joint in your mouth, inhaling smoke onto your tongue, you know, you could be creating... opportunity for cancer. Living in Los Angeles, there is already a lot of smoke. I keep going down negative pathways here, negative brain pathways. Chris is sitting back. I like it when you laugh. I'm just getting to know you guys. You're a ready lapper, which is good. You have some natural joy in there, even if you feel oppressed by the streets of New York and think you need Buddhist philosophy. I have a lot of natural joy, and thank you for noticing that. I think some people don't think that. to be is is true but i know it to be true yeah i mean you you've laughed a lot right now specifically at this very moment he's just in a situation that may be Interesting, I would say. I don't know how much you want to divulge. I'm sitting on the floor in an empty house podcasting with you guys because of the timing today. We've recorded this podcast in very far-flung places all over the world. This might be the weirdest thing I've ever done. And you're going to podcast with me from Singapore in like a week and a half, and it's going to be like seven days different time difference from me. You being [redacted address] in your house is more bizarre than that. I agree.

I don't know. Have you been to Singapore before, Jonathan? No, I've never been to Asia, which I don't know if I'll make it there in my life. But I've been to Australia once. Why not? Come on, Jonathan. Why not? It's easier to get to Asia than Malibu, all this traffic. Well, no, come on. I mean, that is the beauty of Malibu, though. It's like you have this great spot that's only like... 50 minutes away. Did you make friends with people down there? Or were you going to Chrome Hearts? Were you going to Blue Bottle? Where were you going every day? I mean, I went. There was the supermarket area and a place called Zinc. I went there a lot. And that's where I got coffee and food. And then there was a Whole Foods market that I traipsed about and shopped. I really enjoyed. It's funny. We're having deja vu right now. Sorry to interrupt, Jonathan, because we had Jay McInerney on this pod a few months ago. New York writer around your age, and he was living in Malibu, and he was telling us about how... The only thing to really do is go for a swim and then go to the supermarket, grab a coffee at Zinc. The difference is Jonathan was in a rental that he was happy to be in, and Jay is married to a Hearst. So the furnishings might have been a little different. I don't want to put that on you, Jonathan. But also, that makes my point. That's the beauty of Malibu. You could be a king or a street sweeper. You still only got three places to go to, your house, the supermarket, or the coffee shop, whether you're Rick Rubin or me. Yeah, and I was right on the beach. He might have been up in the hills a little bit. Maybe he was on the beach, but you asked if I met people. Get your money up, Jay. Like a Malibu Road, which is the beach I was at, the Malibu Road Beach. There are a lot of beautiful houses on the beach, and it eventually connects to that. famous area called the colony which um was in the movie the long goodbye with elliot gould by the famous director um his name i'm blanking on just because of pressure of the podcast but anyway most of these houses are empty all the time like and so the beach is pretty empty but there's a few dwellings like the one i was in that might have four units six units and so people were living in these smaller apartments right on the beach and so

90% of the beach would be empty, even in July and August. But there was a few locals, and the apartment I was in was next to a bunch of locals, and we did get friendly with some interesting older people, mostly retired. There was this guy who swam every day, wonderful guy. He was in his mid-80s. He had been a Navy SEAL in 1960. Before they were the Navy SEALs, they were something else having to do with explosives. But then later it was an advertising exec living in some cute little apartment on top with a beautiful view of everything. And he became a nice friend. And then there was a woman on the beach who had a wonderful dog who became a dear friend to my dog. They would wrestle endlessly, which was very joyful. So, yeah, there were some really sweet people that I got friendly with. You found your people. That's good. Okay, Jonathan, I feel like this year we're going to sell something. Something's going to get optioned and we're going to get you back to Malibu by the time summer comes around. Is that something that you would want to do, Jonathan? I wouldn't say no. You know, Malibu backwards, for some reason I'm doing the backwards thing is Ubi Lam. Ubi Lam. I went back there a week later because I love swimming. So I even went in the cold water. It was like Christmas Eve and I just love it. You know, like the hot, the cold, all these healthy things. Sure. Cleansing. So I hope to make it back there. I just love the ocean. And it's such big nature. And, of course, anyway, I don't want to get negative about what we're doing to the oceans. You've got a lot of quotes. I mean, it's no wonder you're a writer, Jonathan. But you just say this stuff. Big nature. Two very simple words. Put them together. It evokes something grander. Another line that I pulled from the book that made me want to talk to you about food, it seemed like the main character was preparing himself what's known as girl dinner. Is that something that you've heard of? I have not heard of it. I sort of infer the meaning of...

that mean of that of that meaning you've got context okay well what's a girl dinner is it low calories or that's part of it well that's part of it that's part of it it also has to be rich in omega-3s and easy to assemble so Here's exactly what you're saying. Why is that a girl dinner? Don't take offense, Jonathan. Don't take offense. No, no, no. I like it. You gendered it, Jason. You gendered it. You did this. I don't make the rules. I don't make the rules. I just report it. Jonathan, it's a meme. It's a popular format. It's not like something we made up. We'll get into it more, but I want to say this is the plate that your character... A retired police officer who is a security guard at a Thai massage parlor, a little seedy, he had a plate of pickles, crackers, sauerkraut, and a can of mackerel whipped up with vegan-aise, vegan mayonnaise. And that seems like a peculiar meal. That is disgusting. And very specific ingredients for this type of, you know, you think he's going to be eating a greasy Tommy burger. in his car or jack-in-a-box or something. Obviously, you know, this character and your personal life have some similar crossovers, I'm sure. Do you eat in this manner and why vegan days with the mackerel? Yeah, let's see. Well, I do. There was a time when I ate more canned fish than I eat now. And also, speaking of the oceans, you know, the smaller the fish, the less mercury, you know, less like a thermometer, because their bodies are smaller, I guess. And they're nutritious. And, like, basically, I don't know why I specified veganase in that book. I think sometimes I just grab that off, because in my mind, maybe... the veganase not made from eggs will last longer in your fridge or maybe less bad. But my cooking is such that mayonnaise makes everything really good. Amen, brother. And so the mayonnaise is key. And there was a time when, yeah, I might just have some pickles and sauerkraut. All those things are very healthy, though, that whole meal. Absolutely. In the second book, he gets some cash and he buys a,

a steak at gelson's and uh he cooks it up but he doesn't he didn't and maybe he grabbed some greens but he basically i had a steak and pickles like the pickle with his fiber and his salad i i had an interesting food thing happened during covid i i went totally vegan the first nine or ten months what's her name jonathan what's my name what's her name who made you do this oh oh no i was just like well i was like What's your name, Ja, that I'm like, whoa. Chris, her name was Krishna, and she told me how to eat this way. Hari, first name Hari, last name Krishna. Well, I don't know. It was just like, I don't know, COVID hit. We're all losing our minds. It was like, did it come from like animal markets? Anyway, I'm like, I'm going to go vegan. I don't know. And so I went. Oh, okay. I see. So I stopped eating Chinese food for the same reason. I get it, Jonathan. So anyway, I went vegan, but I might have still had some canned fish here and there. And I had a pretty strong nine months of it. And I weigh like about 160. I'm like 5'10 and a half, 160. maintain that you know yeah and i was once known as the herring wonder though i had a boxing match and two of them in my 30s and 40s and i named myself after herring because i used to eat a lot of herring back then anyway so i go vegan a little bit of canned fish but mostly vegan and my body like disappeared i was down to like 139 pounds And I was just like, in some ways, I thought it was kind of cool. Like, wow, look what's happening. But my watch was going from my wrist to my elbow. I was like disappearing. I just sort of accepted it. And then I became an upper armband kind of Madonna style. Yeah, it was just like sliding all over the place. And my legs were disappearing. And so then I went on a I did a moth.

a zoom performance i used to be very involved with the moth storytelling in new york yeah and i did a zoom thing which was the weirdest thing it was like performing for a thousand people but just looking at your own face with no feedback no laughter and i hosted the thing and the next day i emailed everyone going hey great job everyone don't know how you all feel but i'm really drained and this woman a dissident poet from china who was a professor in minnesota who also knows a lot about herbal medicine, she wrote me, I'm not surprised, and a one-off, I'm not surprised you're drained, you seem to have no chi, and I was like, I was a little wounded, but I'm like, oh, and I wrote back, yeah like no chi i want to at least have life force you know so i wrote back saying at least i said i wrote back and i thought i had done a good job on the show you know it's like god i was a chi-less person up there not bad for a chi-less motherfucker but yeah you could use some chi yeah so so she called she could tell through the zoom that you were void of chi yeah and i wrote back i said um i said i haven't been eating any meat or animal products for nine months do you think that's in she's like i don't know go to a chinese herbalist and they'll get you fixed up okay and so then that night i woke up around 2 a.m starving something i was just like i'm starving i had insomnia hunger and so the next day i staggered into gelson's i'm a terrible cook you know like canned fish with mayonnaise is like the height of my cuisine and i stagger into gelson's i go to the meat department and the butcher is hanging meat up and i said do you have a grass-fed or organic steak and he said well i got this grass-fed and he points to a new york strip and i said how do you cook it i have a pan and he said um seven minutes on one side four on the other side

And then let it cool down and then eat it. Something like that. It was real basic instructions. I'm like, okay, I'll have two. I take two. I stagger home. I cook the steak on the frying pan. And it was so good. And I had the second one that night. Wow. Double stock. And a friend of mine, this comedian, Murray Hill, he started calling me Johnny Two Steak. Because I told him how I ate these two steaks. I felt so much better. And, yeah, and I sort of went back to a more balanced diet, and I put the 20 pounds back on, and my muscles, my Popeye muscles came back. Okay. And that's the story of that. I want to know. I mean, I was not poking fun, but I've always been envious of people who are able to eat. canned mackerel and sardines and all those tiny, super healthy, good for you, inexpensive proteins, I find it disgusting. I love canned tuna fish. That's fine. But once you get into the herrings and the mackerels and the sardines, it's too much for me. Well, maybe try it again. Have an open mind and slather it in mayonnaise and put it on some toast with some lettuce. And it might go down when you didn't even realize it. Luckily, I am a mayonnaise lover. Did you live on a boat at some point, or did you come to this naturally? I think I came to it naturally. I think herring is deep in my DNA. Are you Swedish? No, I'm another ish. I'm Jewish. Ah, yes, yes. The most popular ish, if you ask me. You people love a herring, don't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, herring is good. And I realized it was a powerful source of fish because one time, this sounds like an interesting segue, but I was on a Greenpeace boat for two weeks embedded as a journalist in Alaska, which was really interesting. The Greenpeace people were so beautiful. They came from all over the world. They were so idealistic. I asked everyone, do you think there's hope for the planet? And they're like, no.

Like they thought the planet's going to make it, not humans, but they still were going to try to fight the good fight. There was young people from all over the world. It was like 2003 when we were up in Alaska and the intercoastal there, which is like the world's largest, second largest rainforest in the world after the Amazon. But of course, so much of it's been clear cut and native lands destroyed and a lot of issues up there. Anyway, one night I was out on the deck of the ship. We were like docked on some beautiful island. And I was out there and you could hear the whales breaching in the darkness. And I was on the deck with some scientists and I noticed along the little lights along the edge of the boat, I've seen these streams of beautiful silver fish. I go, what are those? And he said, herring. That's what the... That's what the whales out there are eating. I'm like, herring? Because when I had my boxing match in 99 and named myself the Herring Wonder, I sort of did it as a joke like that. I would be strong from eating herring and have herring breath in the ring and all that. And then I was like, oh, my God, whales, the most powerful creatures in the world, they're feasting on herring. I wasn't so wrong. Wow. There is something there. There is something there. Did you win or lose the boxing match? I lost terribly that first fight. I fought a guy who in the MTV era was known as the Impact Addict. He was kind of like a performance artist, Evel Knievel, or poor man's Evel Knievel. And he had actually had some fights. And we knew each other in the East Village. And this was in 99 at Angel Orange Sons, a beautiful 19th century synagogue. And we had like 600 people, kind of a pre-internet event. I wrote for a local rag, no longer exists, New York Press, and made a full-page ad. I trained for three months at Gleason's Gym. But I gave up like 20, 25 pounds, broke my nose 10 days before the fight training. But we went through the fight because we had rented the place. Tickets had been sold. And my opponent, which would have made the fight bad, said, I won't hit you in the head. Of course, in the first round, he immediately went for my head.

and rebroke my nose in the second round. It was a four-round fight. It was supposed to be two-minute rounds, but we had a punch-drunk timekeeper, and it were three-minute rounds. So I don't know if you guys have done any boxing at Equinox, but like 12 minutes of a public beating, that was rough. Longest 12 of your life. Yeah, it was. You don't seem not tough, but you also don't seem like I'd walk by you in the street, and I wouldn't feel scared. You know what I mean? I walk by me in the street, and I don't. Well, I do feel scared. perpetually anxious but we all are um that's why i read the buddhist stuff but i i had been an athlete i had fenced in college played a lot of street basketball and i love the notion of like putting on the boxing trunks like playing like a superhero i like that you're equating fencing to boxing because it's so similar yet so different that's true but they both involve distance they're both martial arts of a form you know The sword is an extension of the hand. I was a saber fencer, which was the most romantic, the most slashing of the weapons. The other ones use the point for scoring. And I'd had a fascination with boxing. And so I got into the ring, but I had never fought before, took a beating, was really messed up. I wrote my column that night to make sure my brain still worked, kind of like the way George Foreman after he lost to... Ali counted backwards from 1,000, he said, to make sure his brain was still working. But then I had a second fight in 2007. I got challenged by a publishing house to fight a Canadian writer who was coming down to the States for his book called The Boxer. You better have beat his ass, little Canadian. I did. I won that fight. He was bigger than me. But the second time, if you guys know sports, things get slower. Like, you know, and I did a lot of clinching, though, because I'm like, every moment I'm holding on to him, I'm not getting hit. Because my jaw had gotten out of line from training. I had gotten hit in the jaw, and it was a little bit off. I was really scared about getting my jaw broken, and I had no insurance at the time. It was like a typewriter that had gotten out of line. Eventually, it fell back into line. But I won that fight in 2007. And the guy in my...

Former opponent was in my corner, kind of like Apollo Creed. Oh, that's nice. Now helping Rocky. The impact addict came back. Yeah. That's sweet of him. My camp was called Camp Herring, and we even had T-shirts made. And Russ and Daughters, this famous herring purveyor in New York, came to the fight and was giving out herring to the audience. I bet it smelled great in there, a little blood and herring. And sweat, yeah, because it was at Gleason's. We were supposed to fight. People must have been. clamoring on top of each other to get that free herring. I noticed that the people, I don't think they ate as much as I would have hoped. I noticed. Yeah, actually, I just saw some, there's some really good, there's some really great old photos of that first boxing match. I believe you were dating Fiona Apple at the time, and that kind of has the little... the romantic look to each other in those old black and white photos. It was really cool. That was the second fight, actually. Oh, that was the second fight. Yeah, the first fight in 99. There was a picture of the first fight in the New York Times, like an overhead shot. Oh, you want to know something cool about that first fight? The main sponsor of that fight was this guy named Josh Harris, who started this Internet company called Pseudo.com. And on our ring, it said pseudo. And our fight was actually broadcast over the Internet. It was about the size of a postage stamp, because that's all you could see in terms of like bandwidth back then. He later lost all his money. And but. There was a great documentary about him called We Live in Public. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with that. Yeah, so he sponsored the fight in 99, and the great artist, Matthew Barney, was one of the judges ringside because, you know, he's into sports and cremaster and all that stuff. I've never actually seen a Matthew Barney film. I haven't either. Have you? No, I haven't either. I work with J. Crew, and he's famously a J. Crew. he was a j crew model in like the heyday of j crew we always try to get him back and he does not respond to those requests this is a factoid about me believe it or not not you wouldn't think it seen me here obviously but when i was 20 i was um i had some brief success as a male model i i got sort of discovered by bruce weber and he took and i was on the fencing team in college and i oh that's okay yeah that's okay fence

Now it's fencing team. I'm sure your shirt came off in these photos. Well, not just my shirt. And so a picture of me was in the Whitney Biennial. Wow. Bruce Webber did this thing on athletes. Yeah. And so my picture in 1985 was in the Whitney Biennial with a towel draped around my midsection showing a little bit of butt cheek. I was in a swing. And my great aunt went to the museum, which is like, I saw you naked. You know, it was pretty cool. So did you do you have you don't have a print of this or anything? Just the memory. Well, no, I have a print incredibly like I had like, you know, a modeling book. Right. And I ended up in a. Yeah. Yeah. A Fernando Sanchez lingerie ad around the same time that Bruce Weber discovered me. I got this gig where I was in boxer shorts lying beneath three beautiful models, including Beverly Johnson and some other famous models, and I was lying underneath. I did 500 sit-ups the night before, and this photographer named Horst, a very famous photographer who shot through this box, and they brought me in front of him, and he said, he looks like a statue. And that, you know, that was and then I was, you know, that was my only interaction with the famous guy. And I made like 800 bucks that day. And I took that money and I went to Europe and I was supposed to go to Milan and be a model. But I got I was so entranced with Hemingway. I got into a terrible bar fight in Paris and got my nose broken. And I called my agent, who later became a famous modeling agent, who I had found through the Yellow Pages. Because I was taking a year off from college. I joined the Army to pay for college. A friend of mine said, you should be a model. Some guy on the campus took my pictures. I had these pictures. I went to the Yellow Pages. I found a modeling agency that was being run out of an apartment. This guy, Michael. And I called, you know, pay phone. I'm like.

I have some pictures. I was 20 years old. I go and I bring in the pictures. Michael Flutie, if you guys know anything about fashion, went on to became a famous agent. This was 1984. He sends the pictures by messenger over to Bruce Weber. And I go take the train back to Princeton where I was in school. And I get a call in the morning. Bruce Weber had looked at the pictures. Bruce Weber wants to meet you. So I go back into the city. Anyway, I modeled for like eight weeks. And then I was supposed to go to Milan and I did an advertisement for like football gear or something. And I did the Fernando Sanchez thing and a bunch of other, a few little things. And I had cobbled together like maybe a thousand bucks, which was a lot in 84. And I went to Europe and was supposed to go to Milan. And then, like I said, I got in this terrible fight and I called Michael Flutie. My nose is broken. I don't know if I can get to Milan. He's like, quit modeling. It's a terrible business. Something had happened. He was quitting. He later came back. We're still friends like 40 years later. And so I became an au pair in Paris for this French family. I was an au pair garçon American for like six months. It was a great turn of events. I need to contact my old family. I've been out of touch. But anyway, it was wonderful. That's a real roller coaster. That's a real roller coaster. You're probably the first boxer slash au pair. i've ever met and may who have may has ever existed perhaps that would be cool that's you know sometimes like when you write a sentence or you say something like in the history of language this may never have been said before perhaps in all the permutations of words right or this exact sentiment or something probably not though you know but that said you may be right i may be one of the few people but whoever was a male pair in paris and then later had performance art stunt boxing matches i that might be my one yeah yeah you got to be the only guy you got to be it sounds like you could do everything but breastfeed right yeah you know i had in my tv show i had one of the characters try to breastfeed to sue the child just to and he put whiskey on his nipple um so bored to death

Yeah, Zach Galifianakis put whiskey on his nipple and held a baby there. It was like a silly thing. Feels like something that Zach Galifianakis would do in his spare time when cameras aren't rolling, kind of. So he's probably the right guy for that. With or without the camera. I mean, there was this book by an author, Mark Lehner, and it was something like, Why Do Men Have Nipples? He also wrote a lot of literature. And I never read the book, but it is a good question. Why do men have nipples? Why in the course of evolution? Maybe at one time we did breastfeed. Wow. And these are like tertiary. God decided it would look weird if they weren't there. You know what I mean? It's like hubcaps or address numbers on a house. It would be weird if it was smoothed over. You just got to have it. I agree with you. There's a certain rationale there, but there's a lot of function to our bodies. Yeah. Ain't that the truth? How's that for a profound statement? There's a lot of function. You dropped a lot of jewels today, but damn, the body is crazy. That's true. The body is remarkable. I once had a chiropractor say to me, the world's greatest pharmacy is in your own body. And that was very true. I'm into psychosomatic stuff, though. Have you guys ever read Healing Back Pain, the mind-body connection by Dr. Sarno? It's been a long time, but yeah. I'm familiar, but I've not read it. I highly recommend it. If your neck or back is hurting, anyone out there listening, really... you just ask yourself has something stressful happened and because usually neck and back pain is preceded by something we're either very angry about or very anxious about or a combination of anxious anxiety and anger yeah i was in this documentary about sarno called um all the rage and i actually got to meet sarno and speaking of the boxing thing i i had one of my characters say because Like when I was in the ring in the first fight, my trainer was going, Jonathan, get angry, get angry. Later, I had Jason Schwartzman say, I don't get angry. I go straight to depression. And which is a common thing for a lot of people. And but I said to Sarno, I don't really get angry. I said, I go to sadness. And he said, well, you might be angry that you're sad because he saw suppressed anger as a.

Big cause for a lot of neck, back, all these other psychosomatic issues we have. Stomach, IBS, rashes, arthritis, asthma. So many of these things begin in the mind. I like you might be angry that you're sad. Yeah. There's something there. That must be why my body feels like shit all the time. I thought it was because I was working out too much, but I think it's all mental problems. Yeah, well, the Buddha said, what do you think you become? So that's why you have to work with your thinking. This has been a very insightful episode of How Long Gone. I feel like I'm walking away with a lot. I've got a page of notes here, and I'm looking forward to figuring out a way to release some anger today. I don't know how that's going to – what do you think the best way to release anger is, Jonathan, outside of boxing? I think, first of all, acknowledge that you're angry, okay? I'm out. And let's say you're looping with anger about something or resentment. So there's this – Buddhist practice called Tonglen. So try to stop a moment, right? Okay. And just breathe in the notion that you're angry. Just breathe in the sensation of the anger, like without all the storytelling, without all the narrative, right? So you breathe it in and you hold it because you're strong. You can hit it. And then on the exhale, send yourself compassion. Think of it as like a water mill. You breathe in the anger just without the narrative. And on the exhale, send yourself compassion. On the second inhalation, breathe in the anger again, and also breathe in all the other human beings who might be angry about something similar. And on the exhale, send them compassion as well as yourself. Then if there's a person who's making you angry, breathe in their pain. You know how everyone gives off a heat signature of pain? Like both you guys, you're very sweet, you're doing well in life, but you've had... You know, I'm sure painful childhoods are painful. Like things go on. Life is full of struggle. So you breathe in this person that's annoying you. Breathe in their pain signature, like their heat signature. Suddenly they're like not a monster or a jerk. They're just a confused human being. So you breathe in their pain and you send them compassion or love. And that three breaths can kind of break the cycle of anger and looping. Then the anger might come back and you do it again.

Even if the other person is a jerk, they're just confused. It doesn't mean you have to, like, spend time with them, you know what I mean, or be a doormat, but you can have compassion because turning the anger into compassion makes you feel better, makes you suffer less. When we're angry, we're very unhappy, and we injure our bodies, and we make bad choices, and we say... So you want to work with your thinking, your speech, and your body so as not to create further suffering for yourself or others. Those are the three things you have control over, your thinking, your speech, and what you do with your body. Wow, Jonathan, you said it was called Tonglen? Tonglen, T-O-N-G-L-E-N. The definition is transfer. You're just sort of... And I'm not a Buddhist. I just read this stuff and I misinterpret a lot of it. But it's trying to turn negative emotions into compassion and love and acceptance. All right. Just some light stuff. Jonathan, thank you for joining us. Jonathan, thank you so much. You've inspired me in many ways, but I'm also going to try to see how much mayonnaise I have to add to herring to make it palatable. I will keep you posted. Don't worry. You said the third book in the doll installations comes out this week or next week? Next week, January 14th, Karma Doll. Karma Doll. I really appreciate you guys having me on. You have a very nice rapport. We've never met, but you were very... friendly and warm to me, and I appreciate it. Our pleasure, Jonathan. Thank you. We feel the same way. Thank you. We'll see you soon. Well, good luck with your move. Thank you. Thank you. And we're going to get you in Malibu by this summer. Don't worry, John. We'll stay in touch, okay? All right. Thank you. Goodbye.

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