459. - Caroline Polachek

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Sun is out in Los Angeles. It's Chris Black coming to you live from beautiful, scenic West Hollywood, a.k.a. Construction Site. Jason, how are you? Sun is out. Freezing cold. Sun is out. It is a little chilly. I don't know if it's Travis Scott chilly, but, you know. It's not Scott-worthy chilly. Yeah, I was actually looking at the forecast coming up. It's not great. As a member of Old Guys Rule Mafia, you do have to be checking the weather every hour on the hour. And, you know, next week it's like three or four days of rain, lows in the 35, 36, 37 degrees. And I almost... bought a flight to miami but it didn't work out timing wise i was like i'm but i'm going to go to miami in like a week i just can't handle it no more well here's the thing here's the thing with you that i find interesting about your old guy's rule kind of weather situation is that you always look at the low you know where and i you know i think people think of me as this curmudgeon kind of like a i always i always look at the high my glass is half full If it says it's going to be 65, I don't even care what it's at at 530 in the morning when I rise, old guy's rule style. So I think you should maybe reframe how you're looking at the weather. That's something that could help you, I think. I guess since I use weather as a love language or, I don't know, me telling people the weather is my act of service that I give to others. Okay, relax. You're not in AA. Just relax, bro. So I'm like, bro.

If I tell them it's a high of 64, everyone's going to be like, yeah, whatever. That's not really moving the needle. Or if I tell somebody it's a high of 107, then they're like, oh, brother. So I swing depending on whichever is going to give you the best wow factor. You're a verse weather guy. Oh, I slide. I had a few things to talk to you about today because something that seems to be affecting... The DJ community. I've seen a lot of uproar on social media. This has nothing to do with the lighting concept at Burberry? No, no, no. Burberry, I can't even get into that. We don't have enough time. Got it. Okay. But there's some CCTV of someone while DJing getting their USB stick stolen straight out of... I think a friend of the show, DJ Lloyd, Lloydski, I think he was the one who posted it. I don't know if he was the one... Who was robbed. Whose stick was Stooketh, but... I saw this. So basically, there's security footage of a DJ booth. The club is jumping. The lads are loving it. Up the lads, up the lads. And then there's the little beady-eyed YT people who kind of looks around a couple times and then snatches the USB and makes a run for it, which is about as low as it goes. vehicular manslaughter so you're saying you know killing your wife and then stealing another man's usb you just don't do it my question no this is absolutely over the line and i i'm glad that the dj community is up in arms and i'm a little but i'm a little upset that i haven't seen kind of some of the bigger names speak out about this travesty and kind of demand justice well the bigger names on play are playing on stages so large that if somebody even got within 50 feet of them they would be tackled let alone close enough but when i but when i When I go to Fred again's link tree, and he doesn't have a link to the GoFundMe to kind of repurchase this USB and all the white label and SoundCloud gems that were on it. My question, though, is that this is obviously a travesty, a crime, an affront to the DJ and creative communities.

Whose USB was it? Are we positive there was guaranteed unreleased fire on it? Or do we think this was just like a drunk up-and-comer having a little fun? I mean, I don't know exactly because I wasn't there, but it appears that the USB... Don't do the Joe Budden shit. Allegedly, like, come on. Who was it? I did not mean to be Buddening. I've never heard him talk long enough to know how to emulate his speak, but... I think I saw it, like I said, on Lloyd's Instagram and other people like Eli Escobar and some other people of the New York DJ community. So it's all people who are true DJs who obviously the cost of the USB stick is $14.99 at Best Buy, but 20 years of digging and white labels and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of... rare records that have been meticulously ripped onto digital format and all that shit. And then some punter comes up and he's got your whole shit. But the problem is, what are you really going to do with it? If you are playing those songs out, you sort of have a scarlet letter on you. This goes back to me holding a line on people need to get duffed out. I think people would love to duff him out. They just can't find him because... They're releasing a security cam footage of here's a guy who he has both of his eyes. He's shirt on. And he wears shirts. He has both of his eyes and he wears shirts. Look, I mean, I don't know if. I don't know if they have police in Ridgewood, but if they do, they're going to catch this guy. God damn it. It's not so much a police task force as it is a collection of well-spoken social workers who can de-escalate any situation. We like to de-escalate. ACAB for life. Okay, I'm glad we cleared that up because I had some other... It's been a tough day. But of course, if I see this person and we properly ID him, not to make a DJ pun, but if we do get a track ID on his life identity and his location...

Then I think it's going down any number. Yeah, it'll be just like in the Sopranos. You take him to the back room of elsewhere. You take him into the back room of elsewhere. Rough him up a little bit. Yeah, you know, and you hit him with their phone books. They don't make them anymore, but try to find a couple of those. They don't leave a bruise, you know, roll up a bag of nickels in a sock in a Scion sock and start swinging it at him. Hit him upside the head with an A24 sock full of nickels. That'll teach him. Bitch, don't ever touch my USB. It's been a tough day as well for not just the DJ community, but a community that I'm a part of, which is Succession Resisters. And we are small but mighty, but unfortunately, GQ and Town & Country are attacking me today with covers featuring... Usually it's the other way around. The guys from Succession, the young guy that everybody hates because he's too serious of an actor, and then the old guy who kind of hates the young guy. So the dad, and then Kendall Roy, who's the main successor, and then the dad who goes, fuck off! And those people are shining. They're shining. I guess there's another season. of the most popular boring TV show ever to be released. But Jeremy Strong did say in this profile, the GQ profile, that he can sound like a jackass discussing art, and that's just who I am. Which I do back that, because if you're going to be a method actor who listens to A$AP Ferg to get pumped up for his scenes on Succession, then you have to know that you're a giant asshole. And as long as you... are okay with that and you are aware of that, then I have to let you cook. I'm a little more forgiving if he's admitting the wrongdoing. Yeah, it makes you yearn for the olden days where we don't get to see every shred of these people's identity and personal lives because you have this larger-than-life character that is just, we love him, he is mother, we stand him forever, daddy, yes, daddy, yes.

And then you like hear an interview or see photos of him and like, you know, it's just like he's having lunch at Lemonade and being like, you know, wearing a Palm Angels track jacket and being like, yeah, what's up, dudes? Yeah. I was thinking about, you know, getting a Yuzu Lemonade later and just kind of whatevs. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, you're not this amazing person. No, it's true. It's true. And I mean, I don't know. I don't know if they can keep, you know, like any other show that gets this popular, like the other show that everybody was talking about with the two gay guys, like no one cares anymore. There was like one episode where people were literally freaking out and crying and saying it's the best television show. They put out three episodes since then. I haven't seen a word about it on social media. Well, I've heard that that show tricked gay people into watching it. And now like the... the dust is settling and you're starting to kind of wipe the gay gunk out of your eyes and realizing, oh, this is like a zombie show about like dudes who fight the zombie. And then you're like, okay. And it's based on a video game. And then if you're a gay person, you're like, abort, abort, abort. What was I thinking? Okay, that's good. Well, as long as the gays can abandon it, then I feel even better about not ever embracing it. But yeah, Succession season four, I guess is coming soon. and I know you'll be tuning in. Of course. Well, Chris, you should watch Yellowstone. It's Succession for you people, and everyone is fine. Well, unfortunately, Successions, I was reading in Puck today that Succession, there's a lot of drama there because Kevin Costner... Maybe it's not for you people. Kevin Costner is leaving. A little Puck joke. Yeah, Costner's leaving, but allegedly being replaced by McConaughey. I don't know if that's an equal value. I think Costner has a little more... regalness to him even though i love mcconaughey of course how much uh how much regality are you looking for in a character who in a cowboy i should say well i i'm under the impression this is the lead cowboy so he's supposed to be kind of like he is mother cowboy but still a cowboy nonetheless mother cowboy is is the is the ethel kane zach bryan album coming out this this fall that's the as the orville peck memoir

Okay, that makes... I understand. That's all our peckers out there. I mean, I think that McConaughey can, of course, carry the weight, no problem. He's a great actor and a beloved member of SAG, but I just don't... I agree with you. Costner is goaded with the sauce, but it obviously has to do with an algorithm that the Peacock Network has done. They know how long Kevin Costner is going to live and what he's going to look like in three years, and they're like... we need this franchise to live for 15 years. That is not what's... No, I don't think that's... No, that's not what's happening. Kevin Costner is leaving because he wants to do movies and they wouldn't let him. Or there wasn't enough time. That's what's happening. Oh. Peacock wants the cost. Peacock wants the bodyguard and the bodyguard said, I need to get these little checks over here as well. See you later, biggest show on television. I mean, but it's not. That's the thing. It's like, there's no biggest show on television because they're all the biggest for every week. Well, the biggest show on television is what our parents and grandparents watch. Whatever, NCIS, Miami is the biggest show on television. The real shit. That's how Wilder Valderrama is still living in a bigger house than we'll ever even walk into out there in Toluca Lake. Wilmer, knee-deep in pussy right now. Anyway, we do have a guest. We do have a guest today. confirmed Polachick, excuse me, confirmed Polachicks are very excited to talk to Caroline Polachick today on How Long Gone. Her new album, Desire, I Want to Turn Into You, is out now. She's on tour. I believe she's going to be coming to us from a remote location deep in Germany, which really makes sense for the kind of music that she makes, which is a nice plus for us. Yeah, I didn't know that she was in Germany. That's sick. But yeah, I think she's kicking off a European tour. Yeah, she's playing Berlin tomorrow. So I'll make sure to give her my tips for the worst city in Europe. I'm sure she's been there more times than you have. I'm sure she'll have more fun there than I have. But let's give her a jingle and see how it's going. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince.

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It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Power just cut in my hotel room. Wait, is this the whole hotel or just my room? No, this feels like a Europe thing where maybe your key card fell out of the holder. Is this part of your murder mystery thing that you're always doing, Polachek? This isn't that kind of podcast. It's a real whodunit. I mean, it feels like a good omen. It would be weird if this didn't happen. I agree. Also, the irony here is like, as you'll see when the lights come back on, this Berlin hotel I'm in is like...

It looks like it was built by like Nokia or Samsung. Like the aesthetic of every single surface is like Y2K screensaver, eight shades of blue in every room. So it's a hotel in Germany. Got it. I mean, I wish I could walk you through it on video, but the bathroom, to my memory, I've only been in there once since I checked in with the lights on. I've only been in there once. Okay. So you're not a big showering person. That's fine. I understand. I checked in three hours ago. So give me a moment. Okay, I'll give you a moment. To be fair, I'm a big showering person, not a big shampooing person, but we can get into that later. So the shower to my memory has this glass. divider on it, and some kind of holographic plastic is applied inside the glass. So as you move, it kind of does a matrix-y effect. What the fuck? You could be describing your stage show at this point. I'm getting lost, but you're saying... I'm actually offended already at this point. I thought it was going to take us longer to get there, but I'm already offended. No, no, no. I'm trying to understand because I was talking to the interior designer, Kelly Wurstler, and she was talking to me about how it's so crazy what hotel bathrooms have become, how they try to be sexy, where it's like, I don't want it to be sexy. I don't need the shower to be see-through. What if there's a new guest? But you're saying they've applied a holographic treatment. What if I have a new guest over and I'm not ready for them to see my privates? It's annoy a guest. Das Neue, I guess. But you're saying they've applied like a treatment for stylistic reasons. Everything in a hotel is applied for stylistic reasons, yeah. Well, you know, there's a long-running thread on this podcast about my hatred for Berlin, actually, so I wanted to kind of get into it with you because I feel like you probably do quite well there and have spent some time. Is that wrong to assume? So you're already setting me up, right? No, no. Can you rate Berlin on a Rotten Tomatoes scale, please?

You know, I'm going to give Berlin a 6.5. Okay. All right. Because Rotten Tomatoes, they're a little harsh, right? Yeah, yeah. They're known for that. Okay, okay. They give it up when it's dope, though. Yeah, okay. You know what? I stand by the 6.5. Okay. But that's also just because most of my Berlin friends have moved to LA or New York at this point. So the dwindling friend count is influencing my rate, my scoring. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's reasonable. I mean, I think the people and the way they treated me seemed harsh, but I also look like a big, dumb American, so I kind of deserve it sometimes. Fair. You know what I mean? It's good to take accountability. I'm big on accountability. Thank you for noticing that. How many times are we shampooing annually, Polichek? Oh, my God. I can't do math. I'm a musician. I can't do math. 12 months in a year. Are we doing monthly shampoos? I'm going to go weekly on you. In an ideal world, it would be once a week. Okay. Ideal. Okay. But, well, when I'm doing a lot of shoots or when I'm on tour and whenever I'm kind of more visible, there's always product in the hair and then that has to be removed. So we climb up to two or even three times per week on the shampooing and I'm not pro it. Okay. Well, I want to talk about dry shampoo next. Because that seems like a popular option among the people of your community that like to shampoo less frequently than some of us. Are you a user or not a user? I'm not a user. I think it's gross. I don't like the texture. But here's the thing. When you don't shampoo as much, your hair doesn't produce as much oil. So it's like a beautiful feedback loop. I've heard this story before from magazines and other publications. I believe it. It makes sense. Mine's more of a disintegration loop because I wash maybe once every month. Do you really only shampoo once a month? Yeah, I get a haircut like once a month and I wash my hair right before I get a haircut. Studies show that men who reference disintegration loops tend to shower less in general. 1,000%. But I be showering every day, though. But I have short hair, so it's like not, you know, whatever. The more I shampoo it, the worse it looks. Yep. You get it. Yeah, yeah, you get it. But the real question is how often do you get your hair cut? That's a really good question as well because I, until last year was the first year of my life I ever had my first professional haircut. I would just do it myself.

Blunt cut with scissors, which is why I've kind of have always looked like an art teacher until the last year. I was about to say, Caroline, you've been getting too much money for too long to not be hitting David. You could either go like cuts herself, blunt cut once every six months or. has to fly to Japan to get a haircut. It could go either way with you. Well, I mean, I guess I kind of split the difference. I found an incredible hairstylist who is Japanese in London. So I flew like a quarter of the way there. I hacked it. They're the best. Yes. Well, let's talk about London, actually, because Chris and I are both kind of Anglophiles. We were just there doing some shows recently. You kicked off your tour there, and I think you spend a lot of time there, have a lot of friends there. What makes you an Anglophile? What draws you so much to those people over there? I just like how everyday life feels in London. I really like just getting into the swing of things and sort of just dissolving into the city and just feeling like a normal person there rather than going for big events or whatever. I really like a lot of more creature-y things. I love how green it is. I love the combination between really old and really new things there. I feel like it positions, you know, both antiquity and futurism sort of in its own particular light. But I also just love the scene there. Everyone, you know, I love the sort of dry wit and the curiosity and how generally more intellectual and well-read people are in London. Yeah, the dry wit and the fact that when you just watch a dumb television show, everyone is so well-spoken and funny and charming in their own way. I don't know. I guess because you kind of have to be there and not so much in L.A., I guess. Yeah, but it's also like a cheat. It's a bit of like a cheat for people who already speak English to go there because it's such a different culture, but yet you have kind of access. to some of the nuances just by already automatically understanding the language. So for me, it makes it a more intriguing international relocation than a country where I couldn't speak a language would be. Boring answer. I agree completely. It feels more foreign than going to Italy in many ways, even though they're speaking the same language as me. Exactly. So in L.A., are you spending time in the Valley?

Are you a valley chick? I do. I mean, I sort of live right where, well, I'm not going to get too into it. I live very close to the valley. You can drop a pen. It's fine. We'll share it with our listeners. I live like right where the valley just about begins. So, you know, I've rehearsed in there. I do my shopping there. I love the valley. It just feels like it's trapped in amber. It's like, you know, a look at like 70s and 80s that you don't get. Yeah, that's my favorite part about it because it reminds me of growing up in suburbia in Southern California, a lot of those untouched mini malls and shopping centers and things like that. Which Whole Foods do you go to? Are you a Burbank or a Glendale? I'm a Burbank girl. How do you know I shop at Whole Foods? How do you know a Whole Foods hero? Are you kidding? Lucky guess. I mean, yeah. I mean, really? Is that so weird? Every guest that's been on this show shops at Whole Foods. Don't worry. Yeah. No one that listens to this show shops at Whole Foods. It's kind of a theme. Right. We did this. I asked Whitney from the Hills the same question. It's only because I'm at Whole Foods and Burbank all the time as well. I'm surprised we haven't run into each other. That's all. I mean, I hit up the hot bar a lot. Big fan of the hot bar. Chicken tendies. You know, you guys always talk about this location. I find the parking, I don't like parking in a structure. I prefer to park in a lot, in open air a lot. Why is that? Yeah. Who hurt you, Chris? No, I don't know. It just turns me off. It makes everything feel like more of a to-do, I think, when you have to park like that. It feels like you're going to Ikea instead of going to pick up a bomb-ass smoothie. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It really does. It makes it feel more... serious to me, I think. Clinical serious? Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. I also feel like they're like... The traditional thing of people eyeing each other up in the aisles of the supermarket actually happens in the parking garage. I feel people are really reading each other in the garage in a kind of almost aggressive way, not like a sexy way. Kind of like when you're queued up for the club versus when you're inside the club. It's honestly very that. Well, I think in L.A. that has more to do with the car culture because they're seeing you get out of that non-electric vehicle and they're like, damn.

I was going to try to hit, but that car takes gas, so I can't even. No, it's honestly even worse than that. Maybe this explains all, but they're like, I see you getting out of that 2006 electric or hybrid vehicle. Yeah, okay. They know how inefficient that car is, you know. You're saying the 2006 Prius is worse than a 2022 gas guzzler at this point. You can draw a straight line. The tech is a bug, not a feature at this point, Chris. We all know that. You know my intentions are good, but. The application is lacking. So, yeah. So I deserve all the judgment I'm getting. Polichek, when you finally come back from tour and you're back in the valley, what's the first restaurant you go to? I'm probably going to go to Daichan first. Have you guys ever been to Daichan? No. No. Daichan. How could you spell that for our listeners at home? D-A-I-C-H-A-N. One word. Okay. Daichan. Got it. It's kind of like the Suen of... northern la wait what hold on how the fuck now i'm offended because there used to be a place there used to be a place that chris chang would take me to jason like in hollywood that was very much suen murakami maybe and it closed it closed a while ago but so tell us more what what's what kind of steamed pumpkin are you getting i'm actually getting like the the vegetarian sushi shockingly because it's really good laid out on brown rice all sorts of you know marinated burdock Mushrooms. Okay, hold on. This might be the first time Burdock has been mentioned on this podcast. Congratulations for that. And also, this is good because Chris mainly just lives off of vegetarian sushi, so this is huge for him. Wait, are you trolling Chris right now, or is that for real? No, I swear to God. No, Chris is basically vegan. Whenever I go get sushi with him, I'm ordering, like, let me get the quail, blah, blah, blah, and the live shrimp heads and the uni, and he's like, Let me get 11 avocado rolls plain, please. Yeah, I want plain. But no, I mean, I'm forced to go to these high-end sushi restaurants, obviously. Poor thing.

I mean, Caroline, we know you've been to Nobu a few times in your life, but it doesn't hit the same, honestly. Once and only in Singapore. I've never been to an American Nobu. No Malibu Nobu? What? I drive a 2006 Prius. I don't know who you guys think I am. I thought you were – I fancied you more a gourmand, that's all. No, I didn't. I just assumed – Listen – There were some music business vultures looking to take you out and buy your publishing. You know what I mean? I mean, to be fair, I got some amazing sushi dinners out of publishing meetings, but we didn't go to Nobu. We went to, like, tiny, tiny – omakase spots. Okay. Sure, sure. Okay. Now, you don't find... I am actually... I'm not anti-omakase, but I'm a little bit... It takes too long, and I don't have the patience. I just get too drunk by the end. That's my problem. Because the food... You're sitting there for three and a half hours getting tiny little dog treats, and they're delicious treats, but... Anyway. Yeah. I got to work on that. It's like an acquired skill, I'm sure. No, no. It's true, though. Yeah. You guys... You have to check out Daichan. I think you'll love it. Also, the other cool thing about Daichan is, like, while it has all the sort of health food charm of suen, the interior is way better. It's, like, incredibly overhung with very traditional Japanese stuff. Okay. Like dolls, masks. tapestries, bells, tchotchkes, accoutrements. Because Suin, Suin, I've seen some of the most beautiful women in our world battered and bruised from the lighting at Suin. It's unbelievable. I mean, the first time I ever walked into Daichan, I saw Ryan Gosling sitting there. Oh, okay. So Gosling, okay. A challenger appears, Chris. So Gosling and his skinny jeans and red wings was tucking into some burdock root. That sounds great. I mean, you know, health is wealth. Gosling probably knows that you're allowed to eat sushi with your hands. It's totally fine. Are you allowed to? This is my first time hearing about this. No, no, no. It's traditional in Japanese culture. It is no offense to pick up sushi with your hands instead of chopsticks. I read this amazing Andy Warhol interview where he sits down for lunch with the interviewer, and it takes the interviewer to the end of the meal to realize that Andy's been eating salad with his hands the entire interview because he does it so elegantly.

That they just didn't notice. And that was like a big revelation for me. I was like, oh, you can get away with all sorts of things as long as you do it elegantly. I think it's a huge flex. It's a massive flex. Maybe it's a generational thing. We don't have the confidence. We've been taught wrong from such a young age. It's just an age thing. But also, when you eat salad with your hands, you can really manipulate the lettuces to fit exactly how you want them to land into your mouth. Well, that's the thing. Because if you're eating salad with anything else, it's... You know, there's that thing where you're trying to stuff too much into your mouth, and it's sort of like the bits, you know. I feel like you have these nice, elegant hands with all this jewelry. I stick my nubs in there. It looks like a dog going for the bowl. It doesn't have the same. I don't know if I could pull it off. You need to step up your elegance game, dumbass. Caroline, do you ever check out your subreddit? The Caroline Polachek Reddit forum? Admittedly, only when I'm scared of leaks. Because it do be the closest to you sometimes, you know what I mean? Yeah, and thankfully there are people who are better at screening leaks than I do, but sometimes I just want to get a read. Yeah. And so I just see on Reddit what's up. So that's the only real reason. Yeah. I think it messes my head too much if I look at those kind of forms, so I just don't really look at it. No, it's better that way. I honestly kind of forget about leaks. It feels like something kind of from a different era, but I also feel like it happens again. I don't know. Now that everything is so digital, it seems like it's probably more of an issue. Is that fair to say? I mean, to be honest, I have no idea, actually, because... I've only lived now. Sure, sure, sure. Well, I guess you'll be... No, no, no. I'm going to... I haven't only lived now. I lived a whole other life before now, which was like in an indie band in Brooklyn. And leaks were really an issue. Maybe it was because of the fandom was way more analog. Yeah, yeah. I think it was the playback device because I could illegally download a chairlift song and then put it on my iPod and now I'm bumping it versus if I illegally download a song, I can't just put it on Spotify. I think you're actually making the opposite point.

If downloading culture was like the culture, then that would have made leaks more valuable then than they are now. Well, I was always told that it happened when it went to the plant for CD pressing. I was always told that was the point in which it was open to stealing back in the day. I mean, I think record labels have... planted that myth because they want to take themselves out of the equation. But let's be honest, the majority of the people who have unreleased content are, of course, at labels. I don't really have a label. So for me, that's not an issue. Don't come for that A&R consultant. He didn't leak anything. He's just with his kids in New Jersey. He's having fun. I hate A&Rs. You know what? But the A&R's intern has an intern, and that guy has an intern as well. Yeah, you're right. You're right. And they have a toxic friend who is going to get those MP3s out of here. And that friend has a drunk roommate. Yeah, you're telling me. I mean, I don't share anything with Jason. He's my drunk roommate, kind of. Cutting into your streams. Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned not really having a label, and that allows you to make an album and then release it, like, the next week versus... A year and a half from now, right? Not only that, but no one tells me what's going on the album and what isn't going on the album. Oh, okay. No notes. Well, no one tells me what the next single is. No one tells me what I can and cannot make a music video for. No one tells me how much I can spend on it. That being said, what's our budget for the I Believe remix package? I have some thoughts. Interesting. You know, it's sliding scale depending on the strength and potential virality of the idea. Of course. Off pod. Yeah, send over the stems and we'll just... We'll have a look. Even though I just said I hate A&Rs, I am trying to A&R your album right now. But I hear a song like that, and I'm like, oh, I think of all the amazing people that would remix this into the perfect whatever version of it. Well, shoot some over. Who's remixing? I can't think of any right now, of course, but off pod.

Let me hit the bong and really live with it for a few. No, Jason knows his worth here. He knows A&Ring shouldn't be free. It's fine. I get it. We'll go to Daichon, figure it out. You can pay. It's no big deal. Yeah. My Amex is down. It's down? I thought you meant it's down like it doesn't work, but you mean it's down like it's when the bill comes. It's on the table. She's smacking it on that Daichon table. What does it mean to not have a label? I think this is pretty interesting because I think that people... When you're at a level where you can actually make the decisions yourself and you don't need, I imagine there's a distributor or there's someone involved that's giving you a budget to do the stuff that you want to do, right? So I'm with this amazing company called The Orchard that's not technically a record label. They're what's called a label services program. So they handle all my distribution and manufacturing and I believe some radio stuff. I'm not actually sure if they're involved in radio stuff or not, but Mookie's on the line like, oh, my God. Mookie's like, I got you on K-Rock. But the cool thing is, at a record label, you're traditionally paying for all sorts of stuff like art direction, PR. There's all these in-house services, and I don't want any of them. I just need the stuff released, and that's all they do. Because you can do that stuff yourself, and obviously you can do it better. Yeah, I can do it. much better. So I started my own record label called Perpetual Novice that is serviced by The Orchard. All right. Now, are you planning to put out other people's music or is this just for you? You know, I've actually had some people DM asking if I would release their music, which is a massive compliment. And actually, up until that point, I hadn't even considered it. I think it's something I'd like to approach in like 10 years or something. But at the same time, my first question for artists is I'm like, Why do you want to be signed? What do you think I can do for you besides post you to Maine? You know what I mean? I mean, I should maybe just charge to post to Maine, but also I'm not even really that kind of IG girl. Well, I mean, having the co-sign on, like if somebody has grown up just idolizing you and your music and they think that you're just the next Beatles and to have you put your stamp of approval on it enough to release it.

That could mean the world to somebody. You know, it's funny. I have a playlist that I religiously maintain. Like every three months, I add three hours of music to it. It's called If You Please. And it's like 21 hours long at this point because I just keep adding and I never take anything out. But every time I post an update, there are kids asking like, oh my God, please add such and such song. And it's not even as if it's by them. It's like by an artist they stand. And it's really confusing to me because I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to show you music with this. Playlist? Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of a wild wake-up call to realize that, like, artists' playlists now have actually filled a void that music blocks used to fill. They've become a community. Yeah. Or, like, maybe these cultural touchstones or, like, kind of hot hubs, like mini hubs, like frameworks for shared tastes that people have, and people want their taste to be included in that. And I think all that is actually really beautiful. So, yeah, I guess I feel this new kind of responsibility. I just feel like you've been doing this for a very long time. So you've had every sort of label situation one could have. I honestly only had two. I signed with Columbia while I was still in college, which is crazy. Oh, I just assumed there was something like before that. But I guess that's how it used to work. I mean, there was about a year before that when I was on this. tiny label called Canine Records. They gave us $4,000 to make an album. And then when it was done, they realized that rather than promoting it, they could just sell our contract, and they'd make way more money doing that. Did they sell it to Columbia? Yeah, and we didn't even have a choice either. They initiated a bidding war, and Columbia won the war, and so we were just passive agents in the whole thing. But the good thing is, at least at that time, our team met Columbia. seems to really understand us yeah that was a that was an era for sure columbia was like in that game too like that's what they wanted to be it was a gold rush though you know like the yeah the brooklyn indie and we weren't even the first generation you know it was like yeah yeah yeah as in tv on the radio and grizzly bear like they were the first generation then

I was kind of part of the second one after that. Fucking grizzly bear. Yeah, I mean, you know. I mean, even all the way over to like Kid Cudi day and night remix, you know, being Indian and getting bought up by a major and the whole thing. Damn, that remix. Have you ever clubbed to that remix? Absolutely. Okay. Would you ever go out clubbing for like pleasure ball dancing? You know. Or do you even have time for that? The funny, I guess I would only do it if. In LA, if a friend was DJing. Right, right, right. Or in New York, if it was, like, a fashion after party. Or, like, if I was on tour and just trying to, like, while out of bed on tour. Yeah. And the hotel you're staying in is, like, we have a club. We'll give you a bottle if you come down, you know. Honestly, that's what. It's the unofficial Caroline Pulisic after party. They planted that in this conversation. That's exactly how they want to be positioned. We've given in. Like, they've just won here. I know, right? They just won. Well, you were mentioning your team at Columbia really getting you at the time, but now that you have reached a level in your career and your success where you really do have a team for everything and you get to kind of choose who those people are and not the label, is there anything that you miss? that you kind of still do yourself that you shouldn't be doing or like things that you haven't been able to let go and delegate out yet? Grocery shopping, you know, all the stuff that you shouldn't really be doing. Are you still screen printing your own seven inches, you know? I mean, what you're asking is like a very philosophical question, right? Because I honestly feel like my failure to relinquish so many sides of this project, in my mind, to my little ego is like why it's good. But it also slows me down immensely compared to how fast other artists could work, you know, editing my own music videos, literally slicing up the bits of the Welcome to My Island video, for example, had 18 scenes. And the idea was that each one of those scenes could get posted individually as their own reels or TikToks or Twitter posts without compromising the integrity of the video at all, because there is no narrative, the sequence is of no significance.

The chaos of the jumble was the whole point. So no matter how you consume it, you're getting the point. And ironically, it took people seeing the whole thing until they actually understood what the format was. And I was just relishing the chaos. But anyway. Hold on. You're editing it yourself? That's insane. Well, each of them was a one-shot. So each one of these scenes was a one-shot. So technically, the edit was very simple. But re-syncing audio in some of these cases, making it so each one is a perfect loop, which, by the way, in the video, it was not. So it was kind of like, you know, trimming the heads and tails, getting everything just, you know, like it was 54 pieces of content. And I'm sitting there in Premiere for like days cutting this stuff up. And I could have handed it off. But the fact is, I know I'm going to be like, no, no, no, cut it four frames to the left. The loop's not. The loop's off. The loop's off. Like I knew I was just going to be that anal about it. So I was like, you know what? I'm just sitting here in my pajamas and doing it myself. Okay. So that's where we're at. I feel the same way. Whenever I edit this podcast, I feel the exact same way. I do all the math and the time in my head. And I think like the amount of time it would take to send this to an editor and then they edit it. And then they send it back to me and I send them notes and the whole thing. It'll be faster for me to just do it myself. And then I know that I've done it myself and I know that any mistake in there is only mine. I also had this revelation while I was working on that project that I think that being in constant notes mode or criticism mode is actually bad for your brain because it makes you scan for mistakes. You know what I mean? It makes your first look at everything be negative and scanning for mistakes. And it turns your job into playing defense. And I think that's really bad for a creative brain. Damn, bro. You just fucked me up. That's good stuff. That's good stuff. I think it's bad for you. I think it's bad for you. Yeah, I think it is too, but it's also a necessary part of life. So you have to figure out how to live that way. So I think the exercise here is whenever we, when we're scanning and criticizing and we find good, amazing things.

then we have to really take the time to praise that. If I'm editing my podcast and Chris makes me laugh, I'm going to give a big belly laugh by myself in the room to show it love and respect. Jason, I actually think there's like this other secret third way, which is like, I heard recently about someone who was working for Matthew Barney, who was saying that they were stunned by his ability to get amazing results out of people, by his ability to, Give people a lot of creative freedom and a lot of trust and yet get results consistently from his team that were exactly what he wanted. And when I heard that, I was like, all right, he's on some like John D shit. He's like, this is like alchemy. Right. I think, first of all, it takes you being far enough into your career that so much context is given ahead of the assignment. Obviously, that helps a lot. And you have the financial resources to create your dream team. Yes. But I think faith itself is a really creative force and a very inspiring one. So when you're working with someone, you have a lot of faith in them and in their process and in their mind. They do better stuff. So for me, that's even more than like, quote unquote, delegating and giving notes. Like that's for me where I'm trying to go is like only working with people I think are geniuses and having a lot of faith in what they're going to do. And also, you know, like you were saying before, you know, I think that I'll be the best at doing this or whatever. Like I want to do this myself. So I know. But knowing that there's a chance that somebody out there is better at doing this than you are, which is a tough pill to swallow sometimes. No, no, no. That's wonderful. That's not a tough pill to swallow at all. It's like if you're better at it, then please do it. Please. I haven't met anyone better than me is the problem. But if that does ever happen, oh, man. I don't mean to burst both of your bubbles that there are people better than both of you at some things. I just want to let you guys know that. And thank God for it. Bro, I needed to hear that today.

Caroline, I don't know what your three-pointer looks like, but I guarantee you there's somebody that's doing it a little better than you. And Jason, I can't even count the things that people are better at than you. Wait, what's a three-pointer? Like a basketball shot. It's a basketball shot. All right, all right, all right, all right. Is it supposed to be the thing you're really good at? It's considered to be a sniper style. If you're really good at that, you're kind of like a go-to. It's an important factor because it's worth... Most baskets are two points. This one is worth one more point, so it's obviously valuable. Did you grow up playing soccer as a child, Polichai? What do you think? Yes. I think I played it really resentfully as a 10-year-old and haven't played it since. Walk us through a 14- to 15-year-old Caroline in Connecticut. What's going on? You picked the most pivotal... years of my life or like in terms of my changing. Well, 15 years old, I was like significantly, I was a very late bloomer. So when I was age 14, I looked like a child. And then between 14 and 15, I like turned into a Jessica rabbit mode. I mean, I'm still waiting for that to happen. I'm still waiting. Yeah. I'm blowing out. I'm blowing out these birthday candles, you know? But and that was like, you know, that like helped my confidence confidence so much because like I didn't have boobs. I didn't have much of a social life. And then suddenly I was 15 and got a lot more attention. But the funny thing is that at that point, I was very like. bitter is the wrong word, but I was like, all right, I see how you guys treated me last year. Like I see right for you guys. I know who the real ones are. And I was just counting my days to get out, get out of suburban Connecticut and go to college. But, um, but at 14 to 15, I started playing in new, in new metal bands. I was playing in two new metal bands. One was called Valence.

and the other was called So It Goes, and I can tell you these band names because none of the music ends up online, and it never will. Yeah, that's why you don't check Reddit. That's what you're afraid of seeing. That's what you're afraid of seeing, the promo shot of Valence. I mean, imagine. I mean, I probably looked pretty cool. But when you say nu metal, are you saying like during that, because that was probably the boom of that genre? Yeah, who were some of your influences then? Slipknot? No, no, no, no. We were way classier. We were like more into the vaporous stuff like Deftones and 311. Okay, you know what? I'm going to stop you right there. I'm going to stop you right there, Caroline, because I would love to hear your opinion on this. As a person, Jason and I both grew up listening to punk and hardcore, and it was a very important, informative time in our lives. But a lot of people that I respect, musically, personally... They like the Deftones. And when I was growing up, the Deftones was like corny shit. This is like corny radio version of what we like. And I'm very confused as to this revisionist history of the Deftones being cool. It's only revisionist for you, Chris. Yeah, I was going to say, in this house, there's never been any looking back. In this house, all right, we'll poll everyone in this German hotel room and see how they feel about the Deftones. We were giving them a pass back in 1997, Chris. We were like... Even if this is whatever, cheesy stuff, it's just too, it's just hitting me. But I don't even think it's cheesy. That's the thing. I just don't think it's very good. I just don't understand. I just don't get it. You have bad taste. That's it. I don't think I do. Okay. All right. That's fine. That's fine. I'll take the L on this. But I'm asking you, but that kind of like. loud, soft vibe. And the artwork is bad? I don't know. I'm sorry. I so deeply disagree with you on everything you just said. And I will use the rest of this podcast to talk about that. Talk your shit, girl. Talk your shit. Go off. See, in my mind, Deftones were the only tasteful new metal band. And it's because they didn't give in to aesthetics.

It's because they didn't do a corn, they didn't do a Limp Bizkit. If you're comparing them to Limp Bizkit, of course they're good. But that shit was like Peter Savile compared to everything else. And it holds up. It still feels so hard and so implacable somehow. But yeah, Deftones are still just guys wearing dickies and hoodies. And all the other bands that were their contemporaries are doing fucked up crazy shit. Just like over the top theatric, super cheesy. And that's what was cool about the Deftones was because they always made it very clear that that kind of theater wasn't where they lived. That like that was just the packaging. And they were almost very self-aware in keeping it flat and then making sure that the music, at least in my mind, but the music, they have something so like anemic about their sound. it's so surfacy and the high end and then like there's so much angst and all the melodies and all the dissonance and all the tone bending that chino moreno does like he influenced me so much the singer and you can and the thing is like at the time i just thought what they were doing was just really kind of like gestural and like they weren't thinking about it but now it's so clear when i listen to that stuff that like He's actually in a kind of secret way, kind of a jazz singer, like what he's doing with like dissonance and like atonal stuff. And they have such a strong vision in terms of like, it wasn't like they were jumping around and trying a lot of production styles. Like they knew exactly what they wanted, which was this really very Californian, very silvery, very anemic, intentionally hollow, bleak. deeply poetic, very horny. I don't know. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Okay, I think what I'm understanding now from that impassioned defense, you can rest your case. Thank you. I think what's happening is, I mean, I will never go listen to this, but I think what I'm understanding is I was trying to compare it.

to stuff that was genuinely underground, whereas when you compare it to who their actual contemporaries were, it is 100% better. It's a different sport they're playing. They're knocking horns with the PODs of the world, Chris. It's a whole other stratosphere. Yeah, no, that's true. But yeah, you were right about the horniness of it. It's the only band of that style that you could hear at a strip club and see a beautiful, kind of elegant... FKA twig style pole dance to any number of Deftones songs and it'll work perfectly. Yes. And I don't think you can get that with any other band like that. And no one's going to laugh. No one's going to laugh. No one's going to laugh. And you put on a lot of other new metal at a strip club and it will feel like ironic. Yeah. Or like someone might laugh. No one's laughing at Deftones. They're trying to conceal their erections instead of laughing. And you know what? That's hard work. Erections. It's hard work. I hear. I hear. Now I know who's driving the price up on all these fucking Deftone shirts. It's Polachek spending her advance. Imagine. Polachek, how often do you... I mean, it seems like you kind of have a friend group that's a very similar group of people. Everyone is interesting and artistic and otherworldly, and you kind of have your own frequency, it seems like. How often do you let new people into your inner circle? I'm really curious who you're talking about. I don't know. Just the girlies. You know, just your artistic people that you work with. It seems like you're just like in a different zone or a different frequency kind of hovering above everyone else in the world right now. I mean, I'll take that as a compliment. I'll put it in a more simple way. It's freaks only over there. And Jason's wondering if any normies ever break through that third wall. You know what I mean? I guess I don't feel as if I'm. in like a closed circle i'm pretty nomadic i'm bouncing around all the time between la and new york and london and it does it does feel like you know we're on a circuit like and depending on who's in what city at what time you get to catch up with different friends and i really get off on introducing people like during the during the pandemic i was in london for a year and a half and i kind of felt like i had a a ticket as an american

to put different combinations of people from wildly different scenes in London and a room together without being sort of judged socially for it. Cause I'm a sort of outsider. And so I was introducing people with like 20 or age spans, um, or like across different industries. And, um, yeah, I just really get off on like on those kinds of introductions and mashes, but I don't know, I guess if you're defining people, normies as people who, Yeah, I might not even mean entering your physical circles, but maybe more of your, you know, your intellectual or spiritual or whatever, you know? Well, all right. I mean, I'm just going to be an asshole and just say it, but, like, if we're talking about, like, normies of people who are, like, really nice, but, like... don't really have anything bigger to say or do in terms of engaging with the world culturally or, you know, scientifically or politically, whatever. You're good. I'm probably not that interested. I'm probably good. Like there are a lot of nice people, but I'm not particularly interested in people because they're nice. I agree. Sometimes nice isn't enough. That's my motto. Any loser can be nice. No, exactly. Exactly. I think Jason, I think what Jason is saying, do you have room in your social circle for a six foot nine? podcaster that lives in Glendale and does dabble in the dark arts himself. Wait, Chris, I thought we were already friends. You are, but I think it has to be solidified with a meal. You know what I mean for Jason? Food is his love language. I think that's just something to keep in mind during this friend courtship. Alright, alright, alright. You said you get off on introducing people. Have you ever put together a seating chart for a dinner party? I have actually, yeah. I think seating charts are so important. Speak on that, sister. And merciful because there's nothing more awkward than when you show up at a dinner and there's no seating chart because it becomes so... uh you can offend people so easily or you can get or you can get stranded so easily and have a bad time so i don't know i think it's actually very irresponsible to not do a seating chart i agree and sometimes you can be stranded alone and for no no fault of anyone just the way the cards lay and and you're fucking up a lot of people's nights

Are you the type of person that likes to separate couples in a seating chart or do you put them together? Well, isn't there a traditional rule that if they've been together for more than a year, you separate them? Oh, I've never heard that, but that tracks. You really are a master of introduction. I didn't know that fact. Apparently, I mean, I've heard that's the traditional rule, but honestly, it just depends on the linking. You know, if that couple each only have one other social link there, I'll probably set them together and then link on either side. You know what I mean? Do you think there should be someone in the middle of the dinner table? That's sort of the maestro of the evening. And is that person ever you? I like putting the maestros at the edges because if you don't like activate the edges of the table, you're going to get. You're going to get one conversation in the middle of the table and then dead ends. And you want there to be like two, depending on how many people, two or more conversations. No, it's a singularity. The energy is ping-ponging. I get it. It's amazing. Exactly. I've also heard that six people is the perfect amount for a dinner party because that's one conversation is six people. And the second you go over six people, you're looking at multiple conversations and it starts getting awkward. So you either do six or you do like ten plus. But anything in the middle is a little weird. Damn. Once the music career trickles off, you really do have a future in event planning and coordination, I think. Let's go. Let's go. It's my backup plan. Let's fucking go. I could see you with the headset making sure the dinner's going well, checking on everyone. I actually do think there's a big hole in the market for... cool wedding planners. I agree with that. The wedding industrial complex throws off so much money that there's got to be someone cool. I think it's a dangerous water to swim in. I think people know that there's a lot of money to be made, and if you come in... trying to go hard the wedding industry, and they're going to put the kibosh down on you. How much yelling can you take from a mother? How much will you cry if a mother yells at you? Can you handle it? I didn't say I could handle any of it. I just said there's a hole in the market. Okay, all right. I'm not filling that hole.

Fuck no. I'm busy, bro. Leave me alone. I don't need a new job. Relax. Has anyone ever had one of your songs be like the father-daughter dance at a wedding before or like a first dance? Have you seen that? God, I mean, I don't think I make sentimental enough music for that. You wouldn't be able to emotionally handle that even if you did see a video of it on TikTok. You know, I feel like I have seen some goofy wedding dances with the so hot you're hurting my feelings. Oh, like a flash mob. Yeah. I forget the context now, but I think that song has made it into a few weddings. What's the movie, the rom-com, where the band's playing the Beatles song at the wedding and then the live players? Maybe you guys don't know, but I'm imagining that happening at a wedding and somebody pops out and they're playing a theremin. Some more ethereal instrumentation. I don't know. I think, Jason, you are that wedding planner that we need to see in the world. Places. He's a known producer of events. So just, you know, these are just a wedding would be a little more high end and a little more. Yeah, I'm actually getting married in June. And I have. Grazie, grazie. It is in Tuscana, of course. But I have to DJ my own. I'm DJing my own wedding. What do you mean you have to? What do you mean you have to? Diplo's in a. Because I can't afford. No, because I can't afford a DJ that I would really want to DJ my wedding, and I can't just hire a random local wedding DJ and hope that it works out. So I'm going to make a four-hour-long wedding playlist on Ableton. Nice. DJ Them Jeans, this is your life in music. This is my... Wait, that's so smart, actually, because every couple always has those songs they want played anyway. And also, no one wants to look at a wedding DJ. Exactly. So, why bother? And I know exactly how long the songs need to play for. You're going to put that Robbins song exactly in the right place, and people are going to lose their fucking minds, man. It's going to be sick. Wait, Call Your Girlfriend? No, no. Is that the one? Well, it's Call Your Girlfriend or...

Dancing on my own. Those are single girl anthems, not wedding girl anthems. No, thematically terrible songs. Guys, I haven't been to a wedding in 10 years that hasn't played Dancing on my own. Because it's a great song to get people pumped up. Yeah, I guess there are other people at the wedding who are single and need to get fucked. You put on some of those Robin songs. Exactly. You just put on a Robin song. I mean, it's a classic. It's just such an upbeat. It's weird. It's fully crossed over into like every normal person knows that song. It gets excited when they hear it come on. It's canon. It's totally canon. It's in the I Follow Rivers Magician Remix canon. Yes, yes. Any wedding. I don't care where you are. From Croatia to Kentucky. I feel like the EDM Summertime Sadness Remix is in there as well. Oh, God. In that same playlist. Oh, God. Are you a Lana head? No. You know the one. Of course I am. I love Lana. Have you met her? Do you guys have a relationship? Yeah. I mean, weirdly, I met her before Lana Del Rey even existed. I met Lana when she was still Lizzie. Yes, yes. And we've crossed flight paths, you know. Very kind of randomly and occasionally. We're not close. We're not close. I just see her around sometimes and I really admire her. If you see her at the airport, you'll give a little fist bump and keep it moving, but we're not going to kiki for an hour. I can't even imagine Lana ever even being visible at an airport. I totally agree with you. And I feel like because of her new, what she's doing right now, she's definitely flying. commercial you know she's united she's flying united sitting in the back of the plane because that's like part of the she's in a greyhound she's in a greyhound bus she's in a greyhound with a gun in her purse not going through security. She wouldn't get there. Who knows if she was in her bag? She's not getting through security. That's a good point. Damn, that's a really good point. So Lana's taking the Greyhound. I have human remains in my bag. I can't go through TSA. I brought some stuff from Tulsa that you guys don't want to see. Yeah, I could never imagine seeing her in an airport. I've only seen her at Tenants of the Trees, and that sort of makes perfect sense, unfortunately. Yeah, that's the stuff in her bag that she can have at Tenants and not going through TSA. Exactly. It's the same. It's the same exact stuff. I guess, lastly, Chris,

should we do sync talk with our, with our musical guests? Well, she's, she's got a legendary sync though. So it's a little bit like that bought the first and the second house, but we'd love to talk more about, about, yeah, we have, we have a segment on the show whenever we have musicians on. I know what sync talk is. I know. Okay. Okay. All right. So let's talk. I mean, let's talk. Biggest one that blew your mind and then maybe something you missed out on that you regret to this day that you said no and you're like, I probably should have said yes. I mean, this is going to sound really embarrassing. I actually don't remember how much I've ever been paid for any sync except for that first Apple one. These things like show up in my email and I just say, yeah, whatever. Yes. And then I never think about it again. And I also don't watch. I don't watch TV, so I never even get reminded of when they appear in the world. So you didn't know that So Hot You're Hurtin' My Feelings was on Real Housewives of Potomac. That's crazy to me. I mean, no one told you that? That's crazy. I mean, I just don't believe this. See, I didn't even... And you're actually trawling me right now, but the thing is, I just... It was believable. Okay, well then, if you don't... And I probably shouldn't even say this, but I just will probably just say yes and... And forget about it. No, that's the coolest possible way. The answer is yes. Okay, since you don't know the amount of any of those syncs, how much did you get for Apple? The Apple one was probably like exactly what they should have paid, a completely unknown band who'd never released anything. We were paid $30K for that Apple ad. 2008. Chris is over here being like, let me be your manager. In hindsight, obviously, that was... No, no, no, no, no. That was nothing. But I got a major label record deal off that my whole career. I wouldn't be sitting here right now if that's sinking. Yeah, no, that's true. It was one of those things where, like, we're only going to give you 30K, but it's going to be great exposure. And they're actually right. No, no, no. Well, not only that, they said we're going to give you 30K. And at the time, I'd never been paid anything more than, like, $10 an hour at an art studio assistant's job. So I was, like, gagging on it. Also, beyond that, you know, I didn't feel like my band was even a real band.

that would even exist in a couple years you know so this was all like was this before was this before or after the feist one two three four it was after and it was immediately after as well so i think okay the cultural positioning of it i think people you know made a big deal out of it as if we were going to have that same experience yeah yeah yeah yeah The guys over at Apple had a nice proof of concept for you when they were lowballing you at 30K after Feist. I mean, I think if you heard the story of how it happened, it would make more sense. So I was touring out of a van, out of like a tiny, you know, little shitty midi van playing, you know, I paid my first LA show ever to I think five people at 2 p.m. at Silver Lake Lounge. We had booked our own tour. We only existed on MySpace. We had no music released anywhere else. And had booked ourselves a tour just through messaging people. Got in the van. Didn't even really have hotels booked. We would literally beg people at the merch booth to let us stay over at their house, which in hindsight was maybe the most dangerous thing I've ever done in my life. It's quite dangerous, yeah. It was a simpler time. Incredibly stupid. Yeah, I was like 20, 21 years old. But that's how it works. I mean, that's how it worked. You know, that's what everybody did at the time. Of course, of course. This girl bought our demo CD, which we were selling at our merch booth for $1. I'd literally sit in the van burning CDs with a typewriter. I would type out the name of each song on paper, cut it out, put it in the demo, sell it for $1. five songs on it. And the fun thing is like from day to day, I had changed which songs were on it. So I just like, oh, we're putting these five. And we called it, we called it the quote unquote daylight savings EP, but there's like a thousand versions of that EP, all with different cover art, different, you know, anyone shout out to anyone who actually still might have one. Um, but this girl who bought it, her boyfriend has that radio show in LA morning becomes eclectic. Oh, Jason Bentley. And he played, He played our early demo of Bruises on his radio show. And someone at Apple was tuned in driving in his car and heard it. Fucking Bentley. And found us and licensed. And we got a contract, you know, like proposed to us to be in some kind of Apple thing. We didn't think of any of it was like real or going to happen. Sign the contract. And then.

Two months later, I got a call from our manager who was a waitress at a diner and had no prior management experience being like, the ad's out. It's happened. You're getting paid. I remember running to the computer lab at college and looking at it on one of those Apple, early Mac, the round ones, and seeing this ad and just being really perplexed, not really understanding what this meant. Suddenly, Universal and Columbia fighting it out to sign us. Anyway, bizarre. That's great. But my point is, at the time, we weren't worth any more than 30K. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good attitude to have, and I think it is. You're right, though. There's a value there that's not monetary, so you have to look at it. And you don't really have a leg to stand on in negotiations if you're like, you know what? I want 300K. And they're like, cool. There's a million bands that will choose instead of you. I mean, there are bands who would literally pay 30K or more now for that same opportunity. Yeah, yeah. I'm very lucky. Although, you know, spent the next 10 years fighting back against the reputation that earned us. So it's a yin-yang. Well, I think you're all good now. You've won that battle, and now here you are. I wanted to ask quickly before we go, did you get prepped for this show by Charlie or anyone, or did you go into this raw? I listened to your 1975 app, which was very chaotic, and I loved it. Although it was very bro-y. I was like, oh, wow, okay. Can I go just bro with you guys? And then I also listened to your Charlie app, which was great. Okay, okay. I just like to, I wonder if, because some people ask their friends, some people just listen and do the homework. It's usually one or the other. Thank you for taking the time to do the work, though. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for doing the work, Caroline. You know what? It was a pleasure, and I look forward to doing more of that work all the time. God bless. There you go. Yeah, you do have an album to promote, so that's a good attitude to have. Thank you for coming on the show. We appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you guys so much.