723. - Ryan Mac

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It's Thanksgiving week. Jason is upstate looking at leaves as he should be. How's it going? Are you feeling in the Thanksgiving spirit thanks to your surroundings? A little bit. There's a large owl that is perching outside my front door. We're not friends yet, but we're getting there. He'll move his head. So I don't think it's fake. Do you think this is a sign from Drake about his new lawsuit that he's kind of trying to intimidate you? Is that possible? Yeah, this owl keeps going. oh umg umg umg owe me money uh yeah drake i didn't think drake could i mean obviously he lost kendrick lamar taking a victory lap with his boring album but suing umg because first of all i'm sure they did it you know what i mean like i'm sure they did do whatever within reason what he is claiming that's what major labels you're sure that kendrick lamar paid to have some extra juice the same way drake has paid to have extra juice the same way everyone has everybody yeah yeah yes exactly this is this is bipartisan yeah as far as extra juice it affects it affects all of us positively and negatively he's opening up a can of worms that may or may not be

great for the whole I don't want to yeah like I don't think it like who cares you know you know what I mean like you got to just take the L and let it go and I don't know I don't really know how else to handle it because this is the only thing that could have made him look worse is getting the feds involved. That's unfortunately narc behavior. Yeah, I would say Drake famously not great at taking the L and moving along. Of course, of course. But he doesn't need money, obviously. So this is more of like just a – it makes it even more weird. Drake's a weird guy. I get it. So, yeah, people are – so basically he's saying he's suing them. umg for potentially juicing the numbers on that song and he thinks that it should not have been as big of a hit as it was and look me too i i don't think so either but but you know echoing chris black's remarks i can't help it previously you know everyone is saying that he's now going up against universal music group and then this is potentially going to be the Whatever makes the dam break and the whole system come crashing down, for better or for worse. I think that we're moving more and more towards a society that no longer requires major labels and record contracts. Speak for yourself, bro. Speak for yourself, but sure. I'm sure you were listening to the Shane Gillis podcast, I think, where they were talking about... The conspiracy theory that Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson and all these musicians who, once they hit a certain age and they're not able to really produce the way they were producing before, the industry will kind of put them out to pasture because then they're able to cash in on the life insurance plan that they set up for them 30 years prior. And then their music sales and their estate.

and the museums and the shows and the online ceramics, Beatles merch, and everything is able to just start printing money without having to, unfortunately, check in with those people that were alive before. I don't, that is extremely conspiracy. That's an extreme conspiracy theory that the record labels kill a legacy artist when they're no longer producing. Like it's a cow. Yeah. And that is. I don't believe that for one second. I also don't think that record labels get life insurance policies on their artists. I don't know if that's legal. I could be wrong. Yeah, that part I had not heard before either. But you also famously say the best thing that a musician can do for their career is die. I do agree with that. I do agree. I do agree with that. And maybe some of these record label bigwigs agree with me and they take matters into their own hands and kind of... Put Michael Jackson in the back of his Bentley and close the garage door and turn it on? Yeah, I don't know. Well, they all, you know, and it's all connected to the doctors and the guy that's been trying to kill Kanye forever. And then the same security guard. Of course. Was Michael Jackson's security guard and this and that. And it's, you know, they have these. I know that it's a crazy conspiracy, but there's a lot. There's a lot there to chew on. I think there's bad stuff. Look, I think there's a lot of bad stuff going on. Don't get me wrong. I guess the overarching point is. Drake is playing with fire and he only has a Canadian extinguisher going up against the flames of Universal Music Group. I just don't want something to happen to this. owl up in the woods. I don't either. And once Trump imposes these 25% tariffs on Canada, it's going to really take a hit to his business. I don't know if Dream Crew is going to be able to produce merch for poor things anymore if this happens. So there's something to think about. I walked past the OVO October's very own store in New York just a couple days ago. And they said, me think me one have to close the shop. That's a beautiful store. Great space. Honestly, that's such an amazing. It's such an amazing location to have. It's kind of mind blowing. That's like such a nice building. You know what I mean? It's a prime time. Such a nice building to have a bunch of purple hoodies, collect dust on their acts. When's the last time you saw people buying stuff at OVO? Not at the Grove. No, I went to the OVO store in Toronto at the mall. Well.

Toronto don't count. And it was lit. Like, it was wall to wall. I was, like, impressed, honestly. But New York, I don't know. I mean, I do walk by there all the time. I can't really see in from the ground floor. And I'm not personally going to peruse the racks myself. No shade, of course. I just don't need any hoodies right now. I'm kind of maxed out on hoodies. I'm sure the Dream Crew has lots of great hoodies for different movies that you can check out. Hella hoodies everywhere. Okay, so are you enjoying your kind of... uh guy who lives in brooklyn heights and takes the car out upstate for the weekend lifestyle right now i mean that's literally we rent we got arturo in brooklyn so that is pretty much the life i'm living yeah i mean ns is very nice but you know that's the problem with all these places you know like the the place uh grant the grand cayman island spot That has where all the influencer hosts take a selfie in the big bathroom. Where the business is confusing because no one I know has ever paid to go, but it seems to be a functioning business. The business is confusing. It doesn't add up. The business is confusing. Something doesn't add up. Look, there's a marketing expense. We're working on getting some more traffic over there. But, you know, that same kind of vibe where you're like, ah, a restful, tranquil weekend getaway. It's just me. I'm a man of the woods. I'm going Bon Iver mode. I'm going to, you know, forage local honey and journal and smoke a pipe and have some apple cider and Japanese whiskey or whatever. And then you go into the restaurant and it's 11 fucking couples that look just like you wearing Solomon shoes and a Paloma wool toe. And they're all like, oh, there's Jason from how long gone? Oh, have you been? Have people spotted you at Ennis? Have people approached you? Nobody's approached me. No, that's good. I mean, that is, unfortunately, our market to some extent. But I'm glad that you were able to get the Volvo XC90 from Turo and drive up there in your cozy Ferrell sweater and your beanie. And, yes, you are going to be encountered with guys in Salomon XT6s as well as Paloma wool tote bags. And that is almost anywhere you go now. There's no escape from these people. And we are those people to some extent.

So there's no escape from us. But I like to think we're better than that. Yeah, I guess you I mean, this is you know, I know that you and I are both, you know, anti Airbnb and we avoid it whenever we can. But this was one of those rare instances where. It would come in handy, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, Ennis is very nice. I really like it. And the Henson is really nice. I really like it. I think if you stay for more than, like, two days, it's, like, nice to cook and have a fire or whatever people do. Oh, yeah. But nothing's more boring. But I'm praying for you. But you did hit the house last night, Sissing House, and you liked it? Yeah, Sissing House was great. Just a scant. How about those chips? How about those potato chips? It's a nice little hour and 15-minute drive over to dinner. It took you an hour. Well, it was going to be an hour, but then we had to cross the bridge, and then there was a bottleneck. I thought you said it was like a half hour, because I drove an hour too, but I thought you said it was closer. It was an hour on the way home, and I was going [redacted address], so we got there in like 37 minutes, which is a little dangerous because the roads are pitch black and windy. It's dark as fuck. It's so dark. I had to wait until Carolyn fell asleep a little bit, and then I went sort of F1 mode. One hand on the brights, and then one hand on the steering wheel. Damn, bro. I literally just, yes, I did the exact same thing. I mean, sorry, one hand on the brights, the other hand on my Twitter, on my phone, scrolling. Of course. I mean, I had to put on Third Eye Blind to say pumped up. That's how long the drive was. I couldn't listen to a podcast to get that drive done. That's upbeat music only. There was, you mentioned the... Potato chips, they were quite delicious, and we talked about them being a little bit of an artisanal salt and vinegar blend, and that's what happened. But we did not order the chips, but a nice bearded man who I suspect listens to the podcast sent them over. It was giving a little birdie told me you might like the chips kind of energy, and he plopped them. He works there? Yeah, he was an employee there. Oh, okay, okay. I was like, say, damn, imagine sending over a couple of some chips from the bar.

I know that these are borderline complimentary, but that gentleman over there sent over a jar of olives for you. Here you go. Something to take home with you. That's great. It's one of those restaurants where just simple food done well, cozy vibe, get some bubbles going, the ham, the cheese. I made them. Tell me how they make their ham, and I didn't like how the ham was made, but I plan to try to duplicate it at home. It's slow-boiled. Isn't that something? I don't know anything about what you're talking about. Ham is a disgusting holiday food. So you get your piece of pork, your hog leg, your ham leg, and then you brine it, usually salt, sugar, spices, etc., for about a week or two. And then they smoke it usually or cook it, roast it or whatever. Oh, now we're talking they smoke that shit. Okay. But they said no smoking. They do a slow boil. And then I'm like, so you poach it? And they go, no, slow boil. And I wanted to be a little bit of a prick and ask them what temperature we're exactly talking here. But I don't think they were going to be able to deliver that info to me. But either way. It's a celebration of American ham. Right now, Italian, European hams. It's all about the prosciutto, prosecco, the amon, serrano, iberico, all that shit. And America just had the thick kind of honey-baked ham vibe forever. This is a thinly sliced, soft, just melting, so full of flavor. The dried ham on the leg that's like $8,000 a pound. You know, it's good, but it's giving petrified. And this ham is alive in my mouth. pause i've never heard someone talk about ham so i'm sorry i fell asleep um but thank you for for regaling me with the ham tail i'm glad it just the ham tail does feel very holiday holiday season but i've noticed that i guess my my first takeaway is that upstate is much gayer than i realized it was going to be because we had been talking about how it's like it's nothing but guys were with like uh buffalo bills starter jacket

with some sort of swastika tattoo underneath it or some sort of vibe like that, you know, methed out, neck tats, kind of energy. That is the vibe of the people that work everywhere. Work everywhere. But the people that live there are rich gay guys. I didn't think it was going to be so outnumbered. In a cool way, there was a restaurant that we almost went to. It was literally called Gay Soup Night. And it was the most upstate thing. I guess it's an activation where gay people can enjoy soup. I had a feeling that's where that was going. If I'm following you. But I'm like, are the people gay or is the soup gay? I think both. What soup isn't gay? You know, the list goes on. Soup is gay, actually, as a food. I've never thought about that until now. Anyway, all right. But lastly, upstate is one of those places where, if you're wondering what the vibe is, where you go into the restroom. Wherever it is, a hotel, a restaurant, a bar, a bookstore, a library, whatever, every toilet has instructions. Yeah, definitely. You know what I mean? It's like a handwritten instruction about how you pull the handle and then you flush it. This is very unique. We do things a little bit differently around here. These pipes are so old that you can't flush anything down. Please no sanitary napkins. Yeah, this is one of those toilets. It has a handle, and what you want to do is you turn it, and then it will flush, and then return it back to its initial. We do things a little bit differently around here. When you hit the bathroom, it's different, though. It really is. All right, sorry. We have a show in L.A. December the 6th at the El Rey Theater. Robbie Hoffman is joining us. We're going to have some other special guests. Get your tickets. Looking forward to that one. And Jason, we do have a guest today. We have a guest today who just hopped on, who's not going to talk yet. Ryan Mack is his name. He's a New York Times journalist and author who covers technology, all the fun stuff that we talk about here. So I can't wait to talk to him for an hour about Elon Musk. I'm sure he's looking forward to as much as I am. We're going to talk a lot about Twitter, a subject and a website that we have a lot of thoughts on and a lot of love.

Fuck Blue Sky, am I right, Ryan? Blue Sky, baby. We're not blueskies on this side. Ryan also is from Orange County. Oh, baby. Just like me. And his family has a connection with my wife's family. Are you saying that all Asian people in Orange County know each other? That is exactly what I'm saying. And just like every Asian family I knew growing up in Orange County. He was accepted to a prestigious university, Stanford, and then chose to write about Skrillex and Avicii. So we have a similar path, and let's give him a jingle and get into it. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe, go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world.

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of how long gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app.

using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. How's it going? How's it going? It's great. It's great. How are you? I'm doing all right. All right. So are you in LA? I am, yeah. Where do you live? Do you live close to me, Ryan? I'm like in West Hollywood, where it's like... The edge of West Hollywood, so it's near the West Hollywood Target, but not exactly West Hollywood, I guess. The West Hollywood Target is an interesting landmark to choose. As a West Hollywood resident myself, that's not something that... The West Hollywood Target is the one... location in West Hollywood, if one of Putin's bombs landed on it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That target is a cesspool for negative activity in West Hollywood. But everyone goes there. It's a watering hole for everyone. It is. Proud to say I've never stepped foot inside of it, but mainly because of the treacherous parking. I really hate parking garages, so I try to park on the street as much as possible. It's a ratchet little parking garage. It is. And over there, there's no chance of street parking, and the garage is... chance of street parking 50 chance you'll come back to your car and there will be feces on your hood though yeah that that's true that's that's an added bonus that's a that's just an interesting because i feel like my west hollywood landmarks are basically erewan and the grove are the only two things i think and then maybe i guess like the rose store and like melrose place there yeah is west holly you know the allegations maybe jones is jones reopened jones is right yeah jones is reopened but the the dining room is still closed i guess the because someone obviously ran their car through it so wait you're saying that i can order it for pickup or delivery or you're saying i can eat in that you can't but i can eat in the one room or no room you can eat at the main room like the the bar the overflow i mean you don't want to be in the overflow room again yeah exactly yeah they can just keep that closed for me That's fine. They didn't really explain what happened there. That's because they paid someone to run their car into the restaurant so they could get insurance money? Yeah, but was it Jewish lightning or Italian lightning? You know what I mean? That's a great question. That's a great question. It feels Italian only because they offer pizza and pasta, but I don't know. It's LA. But also, since it is in West Hollywood, I've never heard of gay lightning. Is that a thing now that...

We're talking about gay people too much. Gay Lightning sounds like my favorite roller derby team, but it could also be a thing that really exists. It could be a thing that really exists. Okay, so you're a WeHo boy just like myself. What do you like about the neighborhood? Are you a member at High Mat? Are you going to the cursed Whole Foods? No? What about Crunch? Not Crunch either. I don't know. It's going to sound silly, but... I moved here on kind of a whim and was looking for like the first place that would like let me move in on a sublet. And so I've been here expecting to be here for like a couple months and it's been four years in the same sublet and I haven't been kicked out. Okay. I have no furniture. Okay. So life is good. You landed and that's just what it is. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Do you have a Tesla? I do not have a Tesla. No, I have a Honda Accord. Honda Accord's a great workhorse. I really like that, honestly. I said this on the show recently because I drove my dad's, and he doesn't turn on the radio. He doesn't use anything in the car. He just gets in, turns on, and drives it, and it felt like old but also somehow smelled new, and the car has almost 300,000 miles on it. Holy shit. it's just like the the the radio still has a plastic film literally that's the vibe there's nothing in it there's never been another person in it there's never been like food in it it's just it's it's like his his zone and i when i drove it i was like i felt like i was doing something wrong like i felt like i was in someone's like personal space because it was so it was so well maintained interesting yeah the hondas last forever that was my first car that i ever bought oh yeah and i'm currently in i'm currently in accord new york right now as well damn power three damn wow yeah my first car was an 89 accord stick shift four door i drove that thing like a bastard what kind of sticker what kind of stickers do we have on it I had no stickers on it, but my friends would often put joke stickers on it and hide them in corners of the car where I wouldn't be able to see them for a while. And the best one, there was one that was the Green Bay Packers logo, and it said Green Bud Packers. All right. Well, pause because Ryan has a Forbes 100 mug.

Damn, I should have chosen a different mug. Ryan is a member of the under 100 list right now. That's big. It's a very exclusive club. I hope you got a raise. I hope you got a raise. And I had one last sticker. It was the Arm and Hammer logo, and it said Armed and Hammered. Wow. Which was something that the cops like to see when they pull it behind me. All of your stickers are very Spencer's GIFs. They were found, procured at a local head shop on Beach Boulevard in Huntington Beach. That's very OC of you. Those are very OC stickers. It was next to a bar that we called Flames and Games because they had a pool table and it was painted with flames. That's a good name. That's a pretty catchy name, I have to say. They could have taken that and ran with it. Yeah, so Ryan, I want to talk a lot about Twitter, but I was lightly fascinated by your origin story. Sure. Jealous that you have a Wikipedia page and we don't. But you and I have a lot of crossover. You have interviewed a lot of DJs that I have known and worked with for a long time. Aoki, Calvin Harris, etc., etc. But I saw like 10 years ago you interviewed Riff Raff. And I also recorded an interview for my first podcast with Riff Raff. And it was probably the most nightmarish chat I've ever had in my entire life. The whole time. He kept demanding that I give him cocaine in exchange for being given the privilege to speak with him. Sounds about right. Sounds reasonable to me if I'm keeping it a stack. I mean, I don't – like that's the – okay. I guess that's bad. Is he still around these days? I haven't even looked him up, or is he – Is he alive? He's still alive. He's still alive, and I think he quietly made a little bit of money, bought a couple houses and monster trucks in a remote area. He lives in Florida, and he probably has more money than all three of us combined, and probably still can get 20 for a walkthrough somewhere. I would be surprised if he is a Bitcoin millionaire or something. Yeah, he's really feeling Bitcoin millionaire.

He definitely has a new... I would go... We should propose that to Polly Market. Is Riff Raff quietly wealthy? I'll take the over-under on that. I think that when you buy a quote-unquote mansion in a... central florida city that the three of us have never heard of you can live quite well i don't know if rich yeah the mansion was 180 000 yeah it's it's like that but i'm sure he has a lot of supercars and probably a couple three-wheel cars you know what i'm saying the those i can see they all have candy paint ryan i see that you interview you you interviewed all of these luminaries yourself right is what jason that's how i built my career um yeah so i started at forbes um magazine as an intern on something called the wealth team i've been trying to join i've been trying to join the fucking wealth team for my whole damn life they won't let me in but it's hilarious because you're like a an intern on like 35 000 a year and you're tabulating the net worths of like the richest people in the world and like calling them up and being like so like how do you value your yacht or like what is your wow 40 000 bottle burgundy collection worth which is literally a conversation i had with um this guy jim clark who uh founded netscape oh shit uh if you remember him shout out to jim so i like that forbes really does the work because usually all the celebrity net worth dot com sites are all just sort of speculative numbers so that one we had a big problem with because they were always making shit up or like And Forbes prided itself on doing the reporting and making the calls and talking to the art dealers or whatever. And that's where I started at the company, got my first job, and continued to report on that kind of stuff. But on the side was looking at this music stuff and being like, huh, this is kind of fun. There's these guys making a shit ton of money with these DJs. Maybe we should apply the same methodology to them. And that's kind of how I got into the... Calvin Harris's and the Skrillex's of the world, I guess. Okay, so you found out how Calvin Harris and Skrillex spend their money. Or make their money, yeah. The Forbes list, though, are like the most valuable IP. That's why Forbes still exists, is because those lists are the dominant. That's their wordle, is what you're saying. That's their wordle. Yeah, that's their wordle. But did you, were you often, because some of these, I feel like some of these super rich guys really try to keep it low.

You know what I mean? They live in Iowa. It's all pretty quiet. But were they willing to talk to you? You get all kinds. And I dealt with a lot of the people in Silicon Valley because I was in San Francisco. But there are some folks that don't want to talk at all. And I think on those calculations, we're probably not as good. Of course, a lot of that is public. If you're running a public company, that has to be filed with the SEC and you see their shareholding and everything like that. But other folks are like an open book, and they don't want to see their arrow go down at all or their ranking drop. You can say Mark Cuban's name. It's fine. Mark Cuban's hilarious because he will respond to an email within like 10 minutes of you sending it on anything. That's real CEO swag. That's what I'm trying to be like, Ryan. That is what I aspire to be. The busiest people in the world reply the quickest on email, as they all say famously. It's like three words in all caps, but he'll respond. Very cool. But there are folks like that that just like, you know, oh, like you have my art collection wrong. You forgot this Picasso or this yacht actually was valued by, you know, whatever, by, you know, some Dutch shipyard by 10 million more. And so you have these like bizarre negotiations with them about, you know, why they should be worth 100 million more on the list. Oh, wow. So they're saying you're close, but let's get if we're going to do this, let's get it right. Yeah. With Jim Clark, I remember going back and forth on his like wine collection every year. and like having to call like wine appraisers and that kind of thing those prices those prices fluctuate i assume they do okay they do yeah and you have to like then call like wine experts because i don't know like i was like 22 years old and like had no money i don't know how any of this works you probably hadn't even been to the loire valley yet right yeah exactly and like one of those bottles is like worth more than my life so like sure uh you know it was just a fun exercise and i built up my reporting rolodex from those days and you're just like talking to people about you know their their money essentially i like that i like that when you get to a certain point of money you understand that you just have to talk about it with the press that's what that's such an interesting like when you get a certain point it just cannot be ignored you cannot be ignored and people are going to start knocking on your door and ask you what's going on or you have

people that talk to the press about your network. You know, we've dealt with so many handlers. Sure. I had an editor who would, like, fly to Saudi Arabia to talk with, like, Prince Awalid about his net worth. The prince himself, or did he send some of his consigliaries? The prince would, like, receive my boss, basically, and, like, show her around and, like, show him, like, his hawks and his, like, jewelry collection and his planes and, like, have this, like, whole party to receive her. And then one year she wrote a story about basically he controlled he controlled the stock holding that was like made up of other stocks. You know, he bought other pieces of companies. But every year, because it had such a low float on the stock exchange, he would artificially inflate it by buying more shares. So he would blow his net worth up so he'd be higher in the Forbes rankings. But why not? Why not? I'm a big guy. We're big, big fans of white-collar crime on this podcast. Anything, any stock manipulation, insider trading. It's just fascinating. I mean, it seems fascinating that there are people out there whose main job and main goal and hobby and passion in life is proving and documenting how wealthy they are in comparison to other people. They're so driven by being ranked. As one of the most richest people alive, that just becomes their whole job, right? Yeah. Are we all, I guess? I don't know. I feel like it's a little bit like once you get to that point, there's nothing else. You're looking for something to do. I mean, that's why you collect wine, and that's why you have a hawk or whatever. You can try to be cool. Maybe that would work. When has a billionaire ever been cool? I can't name one. Never. Never. It's impossible. This prince used to put his own face on Time magazine covers and Forbes magazine covers, so he'd make his own covers and then distribute them, which I thought was just so... Damn, that is cool as hell. I'm going to do that with Rolling Stone. You know what I mean? Remind me. That's very Kim Jong-un-esque, I would say. That's very cool. Or very Elon-esque as well. But he's...

using ai to make him look like superman did you learn did you learn about any like bizarre things that are very valuable like are worth like do people have super weird collections that they would bring up to you like oh i have a vault of coins that are worth xyz because that's what i'm into or like trading sports cards or like you know anything that's like a little less obvious than like art jewelry and cars that's a good question i don't think i ever dealt with anything super bizarre yeah like typically the the threshold is like worth more than 25 million dollars anything lower was not worth our time i'm because i'm with you brother i'm with you brother i'm with you brother um so no like no i never like encountered like a stamp collection like a Pokemon card collection or anything like that. I meant more like a billionaire does that, is what I'm trying to say. They have all the stuff we're talking about. They have the wine cellar and the planes, but they also are like, oh, I'm super into baseball cards and I actually have a million dollars worth of them, but I understand. There's certain things that are just below the threshold. One million is not moving the needle. I was hoping for some type of sword that Jesus had or something like that. I like when people collect dictator. artifacts you know that's that's a cool way to to hide your money got stalin's toothbrush yeah it's a very cool way to well what it was i guess what about elon musk is he an open book uh as it pertains to his uh possessions i actually didn't used to do his um calculations but i heard that he actually did engage in the past um with him i mean he's kind of a recent billionaire in a way it's not like He built his net worth up very quickly. Fucking loser. Yeah, I know. He's not old money. But back in the day, he was known for being extremely leveraged. He would have a lot of debt because he would just invest in a company. and use those shares to then take out more cash and then invest in another venture. So he used to be extremely leveraged to the point where it was a big concern. He was building a sort of house of cards kind of deal. Look at him now. He's at Mar-a-Lago eating steak. Life is good. It all worked out. Damn, it paid off. The house is erect. Yeah, I mean, in 2012, he was like...

on the radar but he wasn't by any means where he is now he's now worth like 320 billion dollars he'll probably be the worst world's first trillionaire if it gets to that but like back in the day like he was you know he also was very interesting because he would argue with the press a lot like he depended on the press to tell his story and like he would argue over the smallest details of like you know what he ate for breakfast if it was like reported wrong in a story um but yeah he would engage it was i want to clear this up now it was coconut yogurt it was not goat's milk i want to be very very clear don't let it happen again there's a delicate tummy don't let you he's got a delicate stomach that's i i feel like everyone i feel like a lot of people in these positions play ball with the media until it like becomes contentious in any way sure and then they and then they become not reclusive but they become a little more combative let's say with the with the conversations and for him it's become his whole identity right like he is like part part of the reason why he bought twitter which he can get into is he just hated how he was treated in the press um from the from the very beginning uh you know there was a lot of doubt about tesla and spacex and he really internalized that um to the point where he just hates all mass media like um and reporters because they're mean because they're mean well that's why that's why i only i only look at the daily caller just kind of based on what he's taught me no i mean i understand i i think that That's like if I bought Reddit because people were mean to me. It's truly insane, but there are people that can do that. Also, Elon, he kind of had to do it twice because he got a 9% chunk, and then he found out that that wasn't enough to really do anything, and then he had to buy the whole thing. Is that what happened? Yeah, he was secretly buying up shares in the company. He was worth a lot of money. Tesla was doing pretty well, so he was trying to figure out how to deploy whatever cash he had. He was buying up these shares.

He didn't disclose, actually. When you surpass 5%, you have to disclose to the SEC, and he didn't do that. Might have broken the law there. Chill, bro. Damn, chill. Jesus. Twitter finds out. They offer him a board seat. He initially agrees, and then he gets in a fight with the CEO after a couple days and just is like, fuck it. I'm going to buy this whole thing. What is $44 billion to me? I can just own the whole thing. and run it so and the rest is history so yeah we've talked about twitter a lot do you where do you think it is at right now obviously you've rode the way for a while you're still using twitter is that correct i use twitter um to like share stories i guess and i mean simple yes or no ryan you haven't you haven't done your you haven't done your blue sky post screenshot right i'm on there i'm on blue sky i'm on threads i got i got all threads but Look, I want to make fun of you, and I'm sure I will eventually, but for his job, Jason, he also has to list his signal number and email address. That's true. It's your job to do this. If you weren't on every platform made available to you, you would be doing your job a disservice. Thank you, Chris. I agree with that, but I feel like some people would... Keep all of that. But Twitter is the line that's too far. And I've seen a lot of people, a lot of, you know, contact me on Signal head-ass people who did the, you know, it's been real post on Twitter. And you haven't. So, you know, kudos to you for sticking. That is impressive. I'm a little irritated by those folks. Like, if you're just going to leave, just leave kind of thing. Goddamn right. But I don't know. I still have it. Don't come for Gabrielle Union. Gabrielle Union with, like, the signature. like the it's like like it's a note from the fucking president like she had somebody like put her signature in photoshop to make that's insane but it looks like the new london del rey album it does in terms of graphic design i don't skill and quality i mean i obviously am a twitter i will be there until it goes down it's the best platform it's only gotten better since elon bought it in my opinion um and blue sky just feels so like dorky you know and threads

Threads flopped. Like, it's a known flop. Like, Blue Sky has already surpassed Threads, I believe, correct? I believe recently. Technically, Clareth is claiming, like, 275 million active users. I don't see that when I use it, but... Blue Sky is growing quite a bit now. I mean, I think Blue Sky is growing in a way that people are, and this happens with social media platforms in general, where people really want the handle. Yeah. And I know that's a metric that gets measured and distributed, but the usage is what actually matters. Right. to me do you have your handle on blue sky or threads did you like save this i have to i have threads unfortunately i'm embarrassed i have 12 i have 12 000 followers on threads oh shit oh shit never use it but yeah instagram like tricks you into opening threads and it tries to you know because it's all connected but you know threads i hope it never comes to the point where i have to use threads exclusively because it just feels like linkedin posting about like But LinkedIn is sick because it's siloed in its own zone and its own people exist. And it's like a whole – it's a whole universe that you can dip in and dip out of where threads, like Jason's saying, they're forcing it. They're integrating it into your feed. You click – you put your thumb on it by accident. It's trick bait. Yeah, they're tricking you. Are you guys on LinkedIn? Are you endorsing people? I love LinkedIn. I go on it every day. It's the best – it's arguably – it's the second best social media after Twitter. Oh, shit. Because of the archetype that exists there that is somehow self-promotional but also an expert on everything and loves, like, marketing. And that's their personality. And I need to study those people. Are you, like, writing those, like, bro-a-treat? Like, those, like, one-liner? I should get into that. I think that would probably do pretty well for me, but I just can't get it. It's like Facebook. I look at Facebook every day, too. It's sick. Oh, wow. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Well, to me, that's the problem. I like it when the social media platforms were more segregated. Twitter is for this. Instagram is for this. LinkedIn is for this. It's all clear and cut and dry. You go to eBay for that. You go to this for that. You go to Craigslist for that. And I worry that Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter and threads are all turning into the same sort of boomer posting thing where it's just a collection of dorky-ass slop, you know? And I like the Twitter algorithm keeps all that stuff away and just feeds me what I want.

Whereas the Facebook algorithm and the LinkedIn algorithm, it does not deliver what I want. It delivers a bunch of bullshit. What is it that you want on Twitter, though? What are you guys seeing on the For You page? Funny stuff only. I don't see any politics. I don't see any porn. I haven't looked at my following tab in almost a year. I don't see anything bad. I don't understand. I don't see anything that's not either funny or informative or just like... just right up my street but also you can you you can sort of train it you know yeah you you like this style of stuff and i mute or block or whatever you know the stuff that i don't want to see and it's you're you're pruning a bush and it actually works which is cool but we we just want to see funny stuff cool memes interesting shit and i don't need to see you know Beheading videos and bum fights and this time when a woman got hit by a car or all that shit that most people see. Do you guys get Elon posts at all or have you blocked him and muted him? I muted Elon a long time ago. I would never block the owner of my favorite platform. I'm afraid to block Twitter itself. I don't want to block or mute the Twitter account because I worry that that's going to... trigger something uh on the back end that's gonna fuck up my i don't think i see very many elon posts to be honest i don't think i've blocked him or muted him because i don't really do that to any i i don't like i just don't care like people care too much like it's it's like how does this affect you that much it's it's meaningless entertainment or or a place to gather information it can't you can't get mad at that it doesn't make sense to me i'm fascinated because like for me because i report on him all the time obviously i get it But other people do as well because, you know, he's the most followed account now. He has more than 200 million followers. He's the most engaged with account because, you know, thousands of people reply to him and like his posts. And he's very active on Twitter versus, like, I'm sure Rihanna and Dwayne The Rock Johnson are not.

tweeting 18 times per hour or or even 18 times a year yeah i'm interested to talk about the the twitter the x merch that they've launched i'm getting a lot of ads for x mesh hats all black yeah And I think they're doing a Black Friday sale as well, just if you're in the market for anything. I don't know if that's like journalistic integrity. I don't know if you can do that. I think I'm good. Okay. All right. Something to think about. Have they sent you guys one? I know they're sending them to influencers and stuff. No. Oh, hell no. When I got a blue check the first time, when I got verified, obviously, like years and years ago, I did get a Twitter. I got like a Twitter moleskin and a few other. Twitter logo bird, like the ugly ass bird items. And I didn't, I didn't think that logo could be made worse, but it has been, it has been made worse. And, and Elon did that. So you don't like the rebrand. I really don't like the rebrand. I really, I don't like on, on our show notes for our episode. We still link. I write twitter.com slash Ryan Mac. I don't write X. It's, it's just, but I also hate when people talk about it. When people say X, formerly known as Twitter, that shit's really annoying. Yeah, I think that's the standard in a lot of places that you have to say that. Yeah, which is such a nightmare. I see it all the time still. I think we stopped doing that. You just say X. Yeah, we just say X now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think people are up on it. So really quick, and then sorry, Chris. Since Elon bought Twitter, changed the name to X, do you think there's ever a chance that they will forget? about the Twitter trademark or some type of limitation will run out, and then the Twitter name can be used again by somebody else, and then somebody could just, like Jack Dorsey, could just start a new Twitter again? Is that possible? Maybe not him because he has a no-compete or whatever, but you could just buy Twitter and start a new service like that? Are you in the market? We can do this. If everyone is saying, well, I hate Twitter. I'm leaving to go to Blue Sky. To me, that's just like, I hate driving a Tesla. I'm going to get a unicycle. It's like, yeah, it's not a Tesla, but it's fucking stupid. Why can't somebody just create a new Twitter-like service, but have it be regular? I mean, I think that's what they're trying to do with Blue Sky, right? Yeah, but Blue Sky is so dorky.

It's so not regular. I mean, I've never clicked on it. Do you remember when Twitter started in 2006, 2007? It was so dorky. And it just kind of evolved from there. Anything tech is going to be dorky. It feels more tech-led than Instagram. I just want there to be blue sky for cool people that are funny. That's all. That's what Twitter is. That's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. That is what Twitter is. Blue sky is for... fucking dorks that is what twitter is but i i feel like you know like you said elon musk will probably be the first trillionaire time is moving so exponentially quick in five years god only knows what's going to be happening and we might need to have a new twitter like twitter x as we know it might implode you know what i mean Or we move beyond text-based social media. Like podcasting? Yeah, like podcasting. Exactly. You guys are on the cutting edge. Twitter is less than two decades old at this point. It could evolve from here. Everything right now is looking to just copy it, essentially, like threads in blue sky. But in a couple years' time, we could be... past this and we could be laughing about why we try to replicate that that moment in time that's that is something i didn't consider can you remember can you believe there's a time when we use text based messaging on social media what was the what was the one that was like the picture you took at the same time every day oh be real be real yeah god there's there's just so many there's so many dead bodies in the social media graveyard that i i still can't believe existed like where you you would post a be real take a screenshot and then post that on twitter yeah yeah it's just it's like it's crazy what we have abandoned and what chooses to we choose to hold on to or that sticks around like be real is a stupid idea but for six months that's all people talked about that summer be real was crazy yeah did somebody make money on be real did somebody like they did it well they raised venture capital i think they got to like a 500 million dollar valuation and then they recently sold um so i think they made a little money but it wasn't the generational what am i buying be real for in 2025 for

for like user data uh yeah or yeah exactly or the team basically the engineers oh i see okay okay you know talent so okay so what do you what do you think elon's up to like do you think he's as bad as people think he is do you think that the libs should really cancel their tesla leases or or do you think it's like this guy's he's just having fun you know i i view him not as like good or bad but like more powerful than ever in a way like he yeah before this owned you know space iran spacex ran tesla you know two multi-billion dollar companies you know spacex has billions of dollars worth of contracts with the us government um and now he's in a position where he has the ear of the president, essentially, can influence those contracts. Regulators can pick and choose who he wants to put in these positions of power. Are you saying that there might be some conflicts of interest going on in the White House? A little bit, yeah. Potentially. All right. Not to put words in your mouth. Do you know how much money Elon has contributed to Trump? The final numbers haven't come out, but it was around 200 million. Last time we checked. So that's a good chunk of influence that he has purchased, right? Yeah. On the scale of whether or not we would count that on the Forbes list, that would be relevant to us. Very relevant. Exactly. The thing is, obviously, this is not good. And we can all agree to some extent. But I guess that if he's using Trump to gain personal wealth, that bothers me a lot less than if he's using Trump to influence. But is that all connected? I think it's all of the above. Yeah, they're interrelated. Like the day after Trump won the election, Tesla went up, its share price went up by 12, 15 percent. Yeah. You know, people betting on this idea that he's going to use his position of power to help his companies, because honestly, who wouldn't in that position? No, that's what I mean. I would do the same exact thing. But is there is there going to be.

Is it truly above the law because of because of how high they are? Like, is it is it above the law? You know, I think about this a lot with him and like where he is going to be accountable with the law. And I think he's like blown through any gravitational pull of the law. Like he is he's going to fight everything if he's in court. There's multiple investigations into him now that he is just kind of ignored. And now at this point, he gets to appoint the people to those. Those federal agencies and regulators like, you know, the FAA, for example, which oversees SpaceX, he can now cut their funding or he can pick the administrator who is the head of that agency, you know, and really influence what what happens there. And so, yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of unprecedented where we are. It's a little it's giving oligarchy a bit. you said it not me but yeah that's that no that is pretty wild i mean all that stuff is is like you kind of understand that but when somebody says it so plainly it's like oh yeah that's bad that's going to cause problems what do you predict elon's uh grand plan is or like maybe some of the actions or things that he wants to accomplish with the trump presidency besides gaining personal wealth and success for the companies that he owns. I think he'll want to increase SpaceX's influence in government. And I mean, it already is the main... way that the u.s government gets things into space at this point in time right let me ask you let me ask you a question i know you're not i know you're not an expert on this particular part why the fuck do we care about space exploration so much it's a waste of time and money and it's meaningless why on earth is that such a priority for the u.s government i can answer this question first and then i'll let ryan do a real answer but I think we've moved past wanting to explore and get a cool Hubble photo of Jupiter or Saturn's rings and more so weapon systems, satellites, surveillance, things like that. That's fair. Yeah, I mean, like for Elon, it's making humans multi-planetary. So if you believe him, there's going to be some kind of catastrophic event that occurs in humanity's future that leads us to need a place to live. Okay, I'm out.

I'm out. I mean, that's like, that's fucking third eye, big brain. Well, he wants to occupy Mars and other planets because, you know, Earth does not seem to be going awesomely right now. So it is only a matter of time until Earth is over. If I had to co-parent with Grimes, I would also move to Mars. But also, you know, you've got Elon, who is the richest man in the world. He has so many psychological issues. You can tell that he's just a really fucked up, twisted guy. He has so many mental and emotional traumas and disorders. I can picture him literally creating an interplanetary world out there. He's occupied Mars, and he blows up Earth, or he destroys Earth, or uses Trump to destroy Earth, so that people need him, and then he becomes the savior. And that's the only way that he will ever get legitimate recognition. James Bond plot, isn't it? Isn't that like Moonraker? Which is not a James Bond plot. Look, I can't get enough. I can't get enough. And it makes people say, who? And second question, because this is who we need to go after next. Who started Rivian? Because I feel like we've got to watch that closely and see if something similar is birthed. As in, like, you think that person is going to get assassinated? No, I'm saying, like, if we look at the pattern of behavior, these kind of electric car magnates then become these... Well, literally in the news today, I just read that Biden's administration pushed through before he was gone to give Rivian $6 billion. uh and grant money so they can build a factory in your state of Georgia Chris that's right we're creating jobs down south and that's why that's why no I mean I'm sure Joe Biden's trying to do a lot of stuff before he dies or excuse me gets kicked out of office but I um I don't know if I just think Rivian is the new enemy and I think Tesla but what do you think what do you think about what do you think about all these fucking people that like

are getting rid of their Tesla as a statement of protest. Because my stance on this is... Yeah, a friend of the show, Eric Warheim, I think he just traded in his Model X for a Chevy Silverado 4x4 pickup truck. I say Buy American. I've always said that. You know I stand on business when it comes to Buy American. That's why I have an all-new Suburban. the you know like the the this whole thing where we have we're getting our cars back or if we if we don't give it back we have to put a bumper sticker that says i bought this before elon you know what i mean and i just don't like where is the line because you basically talk to evil rich people all the time and we all patronize their businesses we all you know what i mean that there's no way to escape this so why do you think is elon's connection to trump make him the the thing that people want to disconnect from more I think totally. I mean, it's the reason why those bumper stickers are showing up more than ever. Like, I used to never see those things. And they're like, what do they say? Like, I bought this before I knew he was an asshole or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Whereas they used to say, gas, me, no need. And stuff like that. I mean, people vote with their feet. And, like, consumerism is, like, their one way of showing. protests in a way i think of something like the washington post for example that had its whole ordeal with the non-endorsement ahead of the election and people canceling their subscriptions it was like their people's one way of voicing their their discontent and but not canceling their subscriptions to amazon prime no yeah exactly yeah amazon's way too valuable i've seen one person i've seen one person cancel their amazon prime And post about it. And I was like, damn, there's one real one out here that really stands on business. That's a real dedication, yeah. Like, what are you going to start banking at your – like, are you going to – all right, I'm going to use my credit union now. He's going to start using his wife's account, but still. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, it's just – I guess my point is that people are so on their high horse about all these issues, and I don't think that the – I think that –

So much of it is performative and doesn't affect the bottom line at all. So it's strictly to feel better about yourself. Sure. But that's consumerism, right? Like that's how it's always been. But it's political now. That's the difference to me is that it feels like I'm not I'm not going to spend my money at this place. It feels I guess because before there was nowhere to post about it. And now there's a place to tell people instead of just doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And with electric cars now, there's. obviously more options there's you don't have to stick with the tesla but what would you propose like just keep their teslas i guess and have their mupper stickers if you like well i guess i'm saying if you like a tesla keep the tesla because you like the car and what it does for you what it does for the environment i i don't think that that's that's all and that's why i'll never get an electric car until they pry it from my cold dead hands but until they pry it in your cold dead hands i'm i'm gassed till i die i don't want that do you really have a suburban No, I wish. That's my dream. Oh, the new... I think the boom in American-made SUV, like the Tahoe Suburban, they're really expensive and they're really nice at a certain level. No, I have a BMW. I used to drive one in high school, and I was the designated driver for 15 people. Pile a lot of people in there. Thousands of OC kids in that thing. You had a Suburban? I had a Suburban. In high school? I did, yeah. Yeah, that's sick. What were you into in high school? Were you smoking grass and surfing? What was the vibe? I was going to the beach a lot, but also. playing a lot of soccer you know what bro you look like a motherfucking soccer player i can see you come you look you got soccer hair that's what you got yeah yeah it's nice as well as a beach goer yeah you yeah your beach it's written all over you but what were you doing at the beach just chilling with the fellas little volleyball Body surfing, yeah. Hell yeah. I love a body surf. Honestly, that sounds a lot better than what you're doing now. Since you came out with the book, how many podcasts do you think you've been on? That was what, three months ago, something like that? Two, three months ago? 20-ish. It's been a lot. Radio hits, that kind of thing. Oh, we're doing radio hits. K-Rock or are we talking NPR?

Kevin and Bean, yeah. All right, we got it. But you did some big podcasts. I found out about you from doing Pivot. Yeah, we did Kara Swisher. With Kara Swisher. I'm sorry you had to do that. I'm sorry to hear you went to the gauntlet. And then Scott goes, really nice to meet you, Ryan. Anyway, ugh. Yeah, he was a little silent on that one. But no, we did that one at home. Okay. We did like Terry Gross and stuff like that, who is. very nice and hilarious did you go to the npr studio and like do it remote like you're in la and she's in philadelphia yeah she's in philly she yeah you don't see her in person there's no video or anything like that it's kind of horny a little disconcerting but she's you know such a pro and like you um she's actually really funny because we learned that like her one reference point or the person she looks up to is like howard stern So she often asks insane questions and tries to throw you off kilter a little bit. But she's fun. We all worship at the altar of Stern, though, in this business. Have you considered doing any podcasting of your own now that you've got enough under your belt? I haven't. I don't know. What would I... Well, the New York Times owns you, so they would have to develop it. Yeah, exactly. I know that writers don't make any money, so I'm saying you should start doing a podcast about the intersection of whatever you do and other stuff. Talking to rich people and riffraff. Talking to rich people and riffraff sounds pretty great to me as far as a consumer goes. That's content. Talking to rich people with riffraff. Yeah, the intersection of riffraff and tech is where I live. That's good. So do you listen to electronic dance music? this just something you're interested in from a, from a anthropological perspective? I would say more the, the, the latter, but you know, I went to a lot of shows for it and I was going to Vegas like a lot when there was like Hakkasan was opening and all those clubs. Hell yeah. Okay. So did you, did you get to, so did you party with some of these guys? Uh, you know, in the, in the, in the DJ booth or whatever, their private table, but like, I'm not sure any of these guys would know me by any.

by any stress of the imagination. Okay, so you're at Hakkasan. Calvin Harris is headlining at 1 a.m. You're on a Calvin's booth, bitches. And you're a booth bitch with the Patron. Are you sipping on Calvin's Patron? I mean, are you... You know, there's a little sharing the alcohol, but... I think there should be. You have to get in the zone. I'm working. I'm working. So I want to know, and of course, you get to do the great thing where you tell your girlfriend, sorry, I got to go to Hakkasan again this weekend. You know, it's for my job at the New York Times. So how many times, I mean, like, did you really need to go to Las Vegas this many times to write about it? I was going like three or four times a year. We did like a couple. print stories we did a lot of videos um for forbes on that i can't wait to see you and steve aoki on a trampoline on forbes tiktok we were yeah it was like in we actually filmed an interview with aoki and like hakasan but i remember going to the actual opening of the club itself and like i was such a nerd it was like i was like 23 and like i brought all my friends in like we stayed in a hotel room and like i snuck everyone in with my pass and like yeah it was pharrell's 40th birthday party that night and like Calvin Harris was there, and, yeah, it was kind of surreal, but a different phase of my career, for sure. And you were just writing about, like, the boom of electronic music in Las Vegas, or was this, like, financial research? Like, you needed to see what Calvin Harris's helicopter was looking like, or what? Exactly, yeah, the boom and, you know, how much these clubs were paying these guys. We don't like to talk about that because Jason kind of missed his window. So he's a little touchy about the payment part. Look, I'm doing fine. There is an absence of zeros that other people may have. But I still have my integrity. That's something you can buy a home with, a car with. And I know I'm with you, bro. I respect it. I respect it. I put integrity on all of my forms that I fill out. Can't put a price on that. Can't put a price on that. Okay, so you would just hang out with Calvin Harris and in between him...

taking his shirt off and making out with a Playboy bunny, you would be like, oh, I was wondering what your 401k options are. What exactly did you need to be in the booth for at that moment? You know what I mean? It's all about color. You've got to be there to do the reporting, Jason. You've got to do the reporting. You have to paint a picture. You have to tell a story for the reader. Hold on one second, guys. Keep talking. I get it. You got to be super descriptive about how he's hitting the Q button on the CDJs. Exactly. And that's why you got to go four or five times a year. I actually really like... I've come around on Vegas. Have you been back? I went back recently, yeah, for a soccer game. I watched a soccer game there at the new stadium, but not to a club or anything, though. Okay, so you just went for soccer purposes. You went to dinner a few times. You didn't revisit your old shopping grounds. No, I didn't go to Hakkasan, unfortunately. They would still have you, I think. I think so. Isn't that scene kind of dying in a way? I think it's just not the biggest thing. anymore i think it still exists because that's what vegas like operates on like i think that's just how it works you know yeah but i don't know if it's i think it's just the like the the way it captured culture i think is over but i bet it's still as big as it was monetarily yeah i think like vegas we saw this like you know It, like, reinvents itself every, like, couple years or, like, every decade. And, you know, Vegas, I used to go to with, like, my family. It used to be, like, a family place. And, like, we had our vacations there. And then it was, like, the DJs. And, like, I feel like the DJs are being, like, phased out in a way. What do you think would be next, though? Because it is such an attraction to a certain kind of person. Food, yeah. Food. It's a sports town now, right? Like, they're bringing the Oakland team there. They've got the Raiders. They've got the Golden Knights. They've got the Aces. F1. F1, yeah, this weekend. And then the Sphere is a whole different thing that people now travel for. True, true. That's a good point. I would travel for the Sphere. I would definitely not travel to see Steve Aoki DJ at Hakkasan. So maybe times have changed. Well, I feel like music is still a big part of Las Vegas, but I think that style of extreme, raging, electro club music.

has sort of been phased out for the type of people that are interested in going to Las Vegas and those people can go to Tulum or Barcelona or Ibiza to hear that style of music and I feel like people who are going to play like Shabuzi and Luke Bryan remixes and just like pop music, you know, it'll go back to like Sabrina Carpenter. and uh jelly roll bangers yeah like celeb appearances who play like two songs and like yeah that'd be nice i mean that's that's i would rather see that than listen to three hours of a dj no offense you would rather see the costco make the boom guys and then like john bon jovi dj set that'll that'll sell a lot more rizzler at hakasan yeah rizzler at hakasan That'll sell so much more alcohol. Yeah, because you'll need it. That's why fucking Shaquille O'Neal DJs more than Skrillex does. Shaquille's kind of sick with it, though. Don't come for Big Shaq like that. He's not bad, bro. Shaq is not a good DJ. I didn't say he was good. DJ Diesel is not a good DJ. I didn't say he was good. I'd say he's not as bad as maybe some people think he is. Okay, that's fair. I just want to stand on it. No, I said what's fascinating about Vegas, though, is that there's still some hotels that are still chasing it. club in the palms chaos that opened that completely like had like a 50 million dollar hit jesus christ do you do you remember exactly how chaos was spelled ryan k-a-o-s oh okay so they kept it sort of traditional not not correct but they didn't go super crazy yeah got all okay um but that was a disaster isn't there's a new hotel that just opened up recently that yeah the found i've heard the fountain blue has not delivered. I heard they're losing 300k a day. That's not great. But what I would say to the... Because I think you guys are absolutely right, but also... In my mind, an F1 crowd is very much a Hakkasan crowd. Sure. Like those two things seem very – like on F1 weekend, I'm sure it feels like it could return to kind of the heyday for that weekend because people are there at a party and that's kind of what they like. You mean like people like –

wealthy magnates from morocco flying in they're the ones who are going to want to hear some some proper club music and not dj poly d yeah it's not it's not pacha or dc10 but they're they'll take it right right you know they'll take it that's what i mean i would guess but f1 is also where some of the what is the uniform called the the drivers wear she's wearing the she's wearing the mclaurin fire suit she's wearing she's wearing the mclaren kith collab actually peggy and the mclaren kith fire suit one off one's off the shoulder you know it's a it's a done deal but i don't think that anything can last forever you know that's what it is it's got to change evolve vegas now has a nostalgia fest too like when we were young and yeah like emo night will take over how much how much pop punk you listen to bro a little bit a little bit i bet you got you got you got some mxpx on the ipod you can be honest Yeah. No, I'm going to guess. Ryan, he has a little history with Jimmy Eat World. Little Jimmy Eat World, yeah. Taking Back Sunday. Taking Back Sunday, yeah. Blink-182. A little bit, yeah. Everybody's got a little blink. Jason, that's like asking me like pizza. Okay, what is there a lot of then, Ryan? What is there a lot of? No, it's a lot of Taking Back Sunday. Let's go. Gonna make damn sure. A lot of brand new still, even though they're kind of canceled. Hey, bro, this is a safe space for that concept. Don't you worry about that. They got canceled? What'd they do? Yeah, he got canceled. He was messaging underage girls. Not great. Yeah, it's unheard of in the emo community. It's unheard of. He kind of was a trailblazer. So he's the Matt Gaetz of pop punk. He's actually the Secretary of Defense now. Honestly, somebody named Matt Gaetz and spelling it with a Z is a very, I'm the singer of a metalcore emo band. He was in Hawthorne Heights, actually. It's very Hawthorne Heights coded to be named Matt Gaetz with a Z. That's really funny. So what do you think? So do you think that your life and work is about to get extremely complicated and just full time because of Elon's rise to power with this Trump election?

He already is. Yeah, we're on a nonstop. I basically report on him solely. That's so crazy. But I mean, I get it. Yeah, of course. There's something happening all the time. And obviously, I'm not asking you to reveal anything here, but are there people that have been, sources that have been with you since the beginning that are still there? In some companies, you get this thing where a lot of, especially sources like... phase in and out um you know people that talk to you tend to already kind of be disgruntled in some ways and they don't last for very long so it's and with him he's in these new spaces now that i don't have sources in like in the white house you know so i have to collaborate with our politics desk or i was gonna i was gonna ask do you think the new york times has any people down there in washington that could help that could help you out a couple a couple We were talking on our live show in New York last week about how he was reported that Elon was sort of being a punisher and not leaving Mar-a-Lago, overstaying his welcome, and we were trying to speculate what exactly he was up in there doing. Do you have any insight on why and how that was happening? He does this thing a lot where he... views these like situations as existential crises and he'll like spend all his time in in certain places he did that with twitter for example where after he bought the company he was like literally living at the office and sleeping in a conference room um he he did this at tesla in 2018 when they couldn't make enough model yeah yeah i remember this and so he he kind of views this as like an existential crisis of like saving the country right and so he's gonna spend all his time in one place and I'm sure for folks even at like Mar-a-Lago, it's like very bizarre and strange. They're like, why is he still here at like 5 a.m.? And it's because he just... believes he needs to get shit done at like every hour of the day interesting i believe i believe i need to get shit done every hour of the day too but i know that that's not possible i know that i'm not going to do that so i go home to my bed to sleep yeah that's not as funny as the reasons that we speculated but that's makes the most sense yeah what did you what was the speculation well i i was i was comparing it to like when you're when you're at a party and the guy

who bought all the cocaine, gets to decide when the party's over. And I was saying, since Elon used his satellites and $200 million to make Trump win the election, he's sort of like, no, I think I'm going to stay for a while. Might as well. Actually, is this orange juice fresh squeezed? Yeah, I'm going to take my shoes. Can I get the password for the good Wi-Fi? I'm going to take my shoes off. Well, I can't wait for you. Have you been to Mar-a-Lago yet? I haven't. I don't think I would be very welcome there at this point in time. But, yeah, maybe I'll be on the outside here. Have you guys seen it? So you're an enemy of the state right now is what you're saying? Basically, yeah. Enema of the state. I feel like if I changed a few things about myself, I could get the invite pretty quick to Mar-a-Lago. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Yeah, if you need a bald man on the inside, Ryan, we've got one right here. I'm Southern, and I kind of know the language they speak down there, so I could kind of slip into that if I needed to go undercover. What about live show at Mar-a-Lago? How long ago? I don't platform the enemy. I would do it if I ever thought that the check would ever clear, but he's famous. Elon and Trump are both kind of famous non-payers. If he didn't pay the guys that built Trump Tower, he ain't paying how long ago? for an hour. That's the truth. He's definitely not going to pay the guy who did the catering rally in 2019. We ain't seen a dollar. But I would like to... I just want to see the... Because Jason and I actually went to the White House over the summer because a listener worked there and was kind enough to invite us so he got the full tour. Shout out to him. I don't want to dox him. Is that Biden? Yeah, it was Joe. He's able to listen at 1.5 speed because he only has so much time left. Yeah, actually, oddly enough, sorry to interrupt, looking back, we were there the very day of the big debate that happened in Atlanta. Yeah, yeah. And we were surprised, and that was sort of the one where famously Biden sort of got mopped the floor with. Short-circuited. And we were in the White House full of the Biden administration, and everyone was looking at the TVs as if it was a rerun, or as if they already knew that this was all going to happen. Like, nobody was like, oh, fuck, he's blowing it. It was more of just like...

Oh, the sky's blue again today. Great. Awesome. I was more interested in that. It's interesting to think back now. The design of the White House and the way it flew. It was just really interesting because one section looked like a product store. One section is super traditional. Obviously, because every administration changes things, blah, blah, blah. But I just can't even imagine the ornate and awful. choices made at mar-a-lago that i need to see with my own eyes not as any right not even as an expert or or even particular lover of interiors i just feel like it's a it's a real just to see the tile choice and the guest bath it's gonna feel like look at this lamp for christ's sake it's gonna feel like something and that's why i want i don't want to try the food i know it's bad i don't want to drink anything because it might be poison but i do just want to walk around and kind of smell the carpet and see what's going on Mm-hmm. That's all. That's fair. That's all. I don't want to build. I don't want to build with anyone. Ryan, do you ever think, scenario here, Elon is like, you know what? I am a fucking mega douche. I want to sort of change my ways and right my wrongs. Your entire job is sort of following his day-to-day life. You know him more than he knows him, and you're not afraid to speak negatively about him. If he asked you to come on board... and be an advisor on the Elon team, how much money would it take? And I need a literal number. I don't think it would take that much, Jason. And this is all under the assumption that you believe that he is coming from a pure place, and it's not he's trying to poison you in Mar-a-Lago, like Chris said. Yeah, I don't think he'd listen to me, but it'd have to be like Forbes relevant, I guess. Okay, Forbes relevant, fair. 25 a year or 25 for the whole four years? We'll go 25 a year. Yeah, why not? 25 a year. 25 a year, I would do 25 a year, Ryan. I would do almost anything. Don't test me on that. Don't test me on that. My question to you, okay, all right. I think that's right now. 25 a year, I would.

I would hit a guy with a Tesla just to see if the bumpers are working right. Yeah, yeah. I'll do some field testing. Yeah, I'll do some murder testing. We're going to use people that were already on the out. You know what I mean? Yeah, they weren't doing great. They had let us know that they were fine with it, really. Maybe they're child traffickers. This is how we get rid of them. Yeah, we uncovered it all. We're getting too loco right now. We got to the bottom of it, Ryan. Thank you so much for your time. And the book, what's the title of the book? Character Limit. Character Limit, great name. What a great title, right? Character Limit is everywhere you get books now. If you want to hear Ryan talk about it more, you can listen to him with Terry Gross or Pivot. And I'm sorry we wasted your time today, but we really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, guys. No, Ryan, you listen to the pod, right? This is not a waste of your time. I do, yeah. This is great. That's right, motherfucker. No, this is great. It was really fun to talk to you. We rarely get people that are actual experts, just people that say they are, so it's nice. Yeah, I'm glad to do it, and thanks for having me. And we're here to support bros from the 714 as well as the 949, dude. The 949. There we go. Later. Represent. All right. Thanks, man. Ryan, thanks, bro. Thank you. See you at the beach. Les risques et les exigences réglementaires ne cessent d'augmenter et vos clients souhaitent des garanties de sécurité avant de s'engager. C'est précisément là que Vanta intervient. Vanta centralise et automatise la gestion des risques, la conformité et la confiance client au sein d'une seule plateforme propulsée par l'IA. Que vous prépariez votre SOC 2 ou que vous pilotiez un programme GRC, Vanta vous aide à rester sécurisé tout en accélérant vos cycles de vente. Suivez l'exemple de contos et pigments, réduisez votre temps d'audit de 82%.

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