346 - Max Lakin

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube how long gone baby what's really Gucci them jeans Chris Black coming to you live and uncut from beautiful Money-making Manhattan. The city's so nice they named it twice. Wow, okay. You just said all the Chris Black-isms in one sentence. What's going on? That's either a good thing or a bad thing. You know that, right? Yeah, and today I'm going to flip the coin and say good. I just had a beautiful... Almond Cortado in the spirit of them jeans. Cortado is in the spirit. Almond is not. Well, sorry. I'm not going to be a cow. Do not. Almond is the new soy just in terms of man titties. We got to ban Almond, but that's a different podcast. So I'm glad you got a nice Cortado. Hopefully the temp was right for you. Oh, the temp was actually great. Yeah. My local barista, we were in conversation about the ups and downs and the ins and outs of using the Bandcamp app to listen to music. Oh, really? Well, yeah. I told him I had never done that before and I didn't plan to. He said, I get it. It's good. I like Bandcamp's desktop discoverability where you can just kind of scroll through genres. But the thought of having the app to use it as a music listening thing seems maybe archaic. It's pretty wild, boy. I agree. What's going on over there in TJ land? I finished a little outdoor workout. I have a lot of bugs that flew into my eye, nose, mouth, and ears.

I have a real nap problem. If anyone can recommend a good sunscreen that also is bug-resistant, that is not full of chemicals, let me know. Did you spend all our Nissan money at Domain? What kind of nap problem do you mean? G-N-A-T or N-A-T? For our listeners at home who are familiar with that wine retail outlet, they must have really loved that special joke. I don't know if everyone will understand that reference, but... I like that you, being a sober person who's never enjoyed any of these things, is familiar with the Petnat variety. You really keep your ears to the vine, as they said. I have not spent any Nissan money because I don't have any yet, but the wheels of accounting are like the opposite of the wheels of a fine Nissan. They move slowly. That's right. Thanks to the all-terrain Nissan Frontier. I spent, yeah, I just had a lot of bugs, man. The bugs just... Is it sunny out? Is it hot? What's the... It's very sunny out. It's pretty hot. It's maybe like 80 or so. And once I get to sweating, you know. They're coming for TJ's sweet blood. Yeah, my sweet blood. You know, I've always just eaten some type of ragu sauce or mayonnaise. So they're just like, let me get. I've always just. Let me get a bite. You know what? It's the Nat's term to get a bite. I'm sick of this big bitch eating all the food around here. It's always in my system. It's like, hey, I got a job. interview coming up in a couple weeks you know i gotta lay off yeah you gotta you gotta piss clean i gotta lay off the stuff for a little bit i gotta run clean but my system is never clean it's always dirty but full of different kind of sauces spreads and dukas i'm glad that the good the good people over at office depot where you work were able to kind of look past failed mayonnaise test and kind of... For now. We'll see how the 90-day follow-up. You're in your probationary period over at Office Depot, so they're going to let you... I know the word probation is an ugly word, but everyone goes through the probationary period, so don't let that trigger you. It's just part of it. It's just part of it, Jason. So that part was good. It was hot. I kind of re-injured my knee a couple weeks ago, so I've just been like...

Sled. It's getting better. Okay, I'm glad to hear it. But it has been a thorn in my side. It's kind of depressed me the last couple weeks. Okay, well, you should maybe smoke some more weed or something. That is not the problem. Trust me. We are firing from all cylinders in that department. You're blowing zooties, but your knee hurts a little bit. You better get recovered fast because Chris is coming back to... I know, I know, I know. I'm on my road to recovery, but... I think I'm starting to get, at the local park here in Glendale, I think I've started to enter into a psychological battle with the groundskeepers of my local park. Okay, so they see you dragging an unidentified device across their, I would say... somewhat maintained lawn. Yeah, it's not going to win any awards by local agricultural sectors. No, definitely not. Baseball season is here, so they're trying extra hard to keep the grass maintained. And before, we used to have a little bit of a gentleman's understanding, kind of like, hey, I know that I'm dragging a bunch of metal across this grass that you maintain every day, and that's probably... not doing awesome things for it. Now, have they said something to you? No, no, no, no. But I almost had to speak my mind today, but I decided not to help it. I decided to hold my tongue because they started running the sprinklers on the field almost, I would say, 80% of the time that I'm there. I'll go there at 9 a.m., I'll go there at 10 a.m., I'll go there at 11 a.m. Okay, so hold on. I just want to be clear. Your times vary. So you're saying this sprinkler system, drought notwithstanding, is set. It's not set on a timer like maybe ours would be at home. You think there's a man. When he sees your dumbass lumber out there, he starts firing the sprinklers to kind of keep you off his lawn. Is that where you're climbing? I'm starting to suspect that foul play is afoot. Just a little bit. Hold on. Do you think there's anger or do you think he's taking the piss? I don't think it's anger or piss takery. I think it's kind of somewhere in the middle. I'm kind of like...

He knows that I'm within my right to be at this public park just like anyone else, but he would love it if I just brought a blanket out. and read my um he wants you uh eating kfc out of the bucket and enjoying your edith wharton novel as you lie on the grass and soak up a little of those beautiful if i fall asleep so be it you know what i'll pick up on my trash it's all yeah so it it sounds like foul play a little bit so then i kind of have to like what does he look like hold on what does he look like well that's the problem i don't know because there's a few different guys there's one guy who have i've been conspiring against you well i don't know i don't know if everyone is against me i have one guy who i have a mutual relationship with where we respect each other's space and i move out of the way and go to a different section if he kind of leads me to believe that he wants to hit it in my zone and kind of vice versa we'll give each other a wave we'll give each other a howdy And it's just kind of like, hey, it's all love, family. We're just going to – we both got a job to do and we're going to work with each other. The other guy, it's tough. He's kind of more of the baseball nut. He's there to – Oh, no, no. If we got an MLB guy, we're going to have problems. Yeah, the MLB guy – because remember when you and I were working out there and those guys were, like, hitting balls with their five-year-old sons and they're yelling shit at me? Like, the baseball guys get real angry for some reason. Man, fuck – Fuck these nerds, bro. Baseball is a fat guy sport, and it's for children. And those dads were taking it too seriously. And those dads were also lazy as hell because they were using it. I mean, obviously, a ball machine is partly for accuracy. But come on, Chief. Come on, bro. I agree, bro. I mean, we're going to hire some type of machine to fly a kite for you at the beach next. Don't come for Elon like that. Don't come for Elon like that. You weren't supposed to release those R&D details on the podcast that way. The good part is when the grass is all wet, then that makes it easier.

for me to sled because it creates a slick surface, but that's not exactly what we're always after. So the good part is when it's all wet, then I'll pull up my kettlebell and I'll carry it around kind of gladiator style. I'll do curls and presses and things like that while I'm sledding, which looks very impressive to the onlooking elderly women. who have sort of pulled up a chair to kind of check out the show. Okay, so you're winning some and you're losing some, but you do have some elderly Armenian women that are smoking cigarettes while sweating looking at your quads on flex. I think these groundskeepers that are up to no good... They're starting to see that TJ can pivot, and I don't think they like it. It's like the art of jujitsu. I'm using their own strength against themselves. I'm concerned that maybe some of those women that are ogling you could be their wives and girlfriends, the wags of the groundskeepers. Don't put that thought into my head. I'm sorry. I'm not a conspiracy theorist like you. You expect me to fall asleep tonight now, Chris? After you rock my world with this bombshell? I'm trying to explore all options for you. It's unlike you to put on your tinfoil cap, Chris. Welcome to the dark side. Thank you for welcoming me to the resistance. Chris wants to believe. Agent Black. Agent Black is tapping in. I just want to explore all the avenues. news here to make sure that TJ doesn't lose his sledding area because I know it's important to you and obviously you could you could pivot to another large uh body of grass somewhere in your neighborhood but this is kind of I could but this is my favorite body of grass exactly and and when I went there with you I did step in a piece of dog shit barefoot um but I'm glad to know that you think it's nice and clean and good for you and I I hope that you were able to triumph mentally over these groundskeepers that you're doing battle with. I'm praying for you. Yeah, I mean, will I sabotage them? The jury's out. Will I divulge my criminal mastermind plans on this public forum? Absolutely not. No, you're too smart for that. And I know that I'm starting to think that Glendale PD might listen to this podcast from time to time. Oh, they love it. They know TJ. I'm the Drake, and Glendale is Bridal Path.

They see me. Beep, beep. They beep twice. Hey, big TJ. They beep twice and they wave. Not just the female officers, the male officers as well. No, no. I mean, trust me, Glendale doesn't allow female officers. That's a good point. It's more of like, hey, man, dude, I heard Toronto went really well. You know, stuff like that. And I'm like, ah, yeah, it was actually really good. Who knew? No, it was great, man. You want anything from commissary? I'll grab you a chocolate chip cookie or something if you need it, you know. Cops get 20% off. Obviously, we are a cab, but, you know, a certain select number of police officers who do the ticket writing for California rolls at the stop sign and things like that, you know, I like to get on the good side. I'm actually, I saw something really funny, speaking of quickly, because I'm fuck firefighters as well, because I just think they're part. They're part of the problem. Especially those ones hanging out at Dave's Hot Chicken, those fat motherfuckers. They're too closely associated with the police, but I did see a firefighter on Lafayette Street with a Dalmatian wearing an Amelion Dorr basketball jersey. Wait, the dog was or the firefighter was? The firefighter was, and I'm starting to think that... Was he wearing the firefighter... No, no, no, he was... Uniform underneath the jersey? How did you know he was a fireman? Because he was off-duty, and I've seen him hanging out there before, and he had a fucking Dalmatian. What's more... Dalmatian is a classic firefighter's dog. Do you think that it's possible that firefighters and police officers are also getting discounts at streetwear stores these days? Like when you go to the bodega and you grab a Snickers bar and then you kind of look at the shopkeep owner like, you're not going to charge me for this, right? No, no, no. The way that cops in LA go to creation and get half off their acai bowls. It's the same vibe. I think that... It all depends on who's keeping their nose clean. I think at Creation, you're just going to get some dumbass employees and be like, I don't know how to do it. But if you have some type of guy who's selling cigarettes that he bought cases of in Ohio and the cop knows it and he knows it, then he's got to kind of be like, yeah, you can have avocado. You can have avocado. You can take two vitamin waters today, Chief. We do have a guest today, Jason. Max Lakin is a writer. You might know him from his work.

work in the new york times uh vanity fair the new yorker um you know he writes about art as well which so he can teach jason something today let's give let's give old max a jingle and see what he thinks about cops wearing streetwear i've been getting into nfts so this actually is perfect oh this is huge for me personally this episode of how i'm gone is brought to you by task rabbit oh baby let me tell you something this is this is not a joke I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky.

And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know. have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early, and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen.

Okay, Max, what's up? How the hell are you? You're in New York right now, I'm assuming? I am. I'm in New York City. Okay, how excited on a scale of 1 to 100 are you to be on this podcast right now? This is it, right? This is the moment every young man dreams of getting the call. I'm honored. I don't know you very well, but I'm sensing a wee bit of sarcasm in your voice. We'll see how this plays out for the rest of the hour. It can go a lot of ways if you want, Max. I think Max is being both facetious and serious, which is kind of where we land anyway, Jason. So I don't think... Jason doesn't like when somebody messes with his head. You know what I mean? I'm like that, too. I'm like that, too. No, I'm honored. I'm honored to be here. I just remember the email Chris dropped me when it was something like, or was it a DM even? It was just time to come on. That's right. Well, when it's people, I know. Like you're getting called up to the Navy SEALs or something. I got the call. You were kind of toiling away in the minors, but I saw what you were doing on the mound. And I said, you know, one of our guys is out. He has a rotator cuff thing. And I said, we need Max. Max, why don't we get you out to Tucson, see what that left arm is doing lately. Exactly, yeah. I was wondering, who am I replacing? No, no, no. You're not replacing anyone. I just knew that you'd had the Tommy John surgery. Sky Ferreira fell asleep, so we got Max here. New album in store soon, though, of course. Let's not get it twisted. Yeah, New York is a little – the weather is a little funny. Were you here this weekend when it was 100 degrees? Disgusting. So what do you do? Because I feel like you're not a shorts guy, Max. Am I wrong? You're 100% correct, Chris. So what do you – because I was – I went to the Balenciaga show in an outfit that looked like I was going to play tennis or something because it's just too hot. Right. So what do you do? Do you just thug it out in jeans? So you were more underdressed than –

than frank ocean bro frank ocean look i told you this jason frank ocean looked like he was bringing me delivery food on a bird scooter i kind of liked his look i i couldn't tell what kind of hat he was wearing though do you know what it was it looked like a minor league baseball team not to keep bringing that baseball yeah it looked like was it a snapback or just a classic new era fitting it was it looked like a special and unique hat but i liked i liked the way his jeans his jeans were sitting i liked his shoe his green jumper was not max did you see this fit I can't say I did. I saw some insane-looking people. Frank Ocean wasn't insane-looking, but he was dressed down to the point where it felt like a costume. I feel like that's what you're going for at this thing, right? Oh, yeah. Of course it was. That's what I was going for. I was going for more off-duty track coach, maybe. Sure. Chris, from that Balenciaga fashion show, there were so many looks that you would think would kind of irk you, but this kind of plain Jane. casual fit that frank was wearing has seemed to irritate you the most what's what's going on people worship this guy like he's a god yeah and the fits the fits are more mid than the music at this point so i just don't get i mean he's very good looking i'll give him that so what else does this guy bring to the table mid fits are subjective aren't they that's true i like the way he's looking you're right but but i mean but you're okay with all the ball gags and stuff like that Well, yeah, I'm not – yeah, I mean, look, if you want to wear latex, that's your business. If you want to wear jeans, then you're infringing on my territory. Okay, okay. Okay, now I get it. That's the answer I needed to hear. Thank you. You know, I just – but yeah, it's tough to be in New York when it's that warm, and I wasn't ready for it, and I just don't know. Max, did you have your Javianas on with your Carhartts, or what do you do to kind of get through that? No, you can't go outside. I laid on my floor. You just have to stay low. Physically low. Physically low to the ground with a cool air. I'm not built for heat.

That's a good, that's actually good advice. Close to sea level as possible, because hot air rises in New York, I've heard. Only in New York. So no, so you say, are you in, do you have zero pair of shorts in your closet, or do you have a pair of swimmies when you go to Cannes? Oh, no, I own shorts, but that's for, that's for. That's for when you're on holiday? I don't know, athletics? Holiday? Not for the streets. Okay. So when you're in St. Bart's, you'll pull up in the vintage Ralph double pleat, you know, no problem. But in the city, it's shorts and hard, excuse me, it's pants and hard bottoms only. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I'm going to St. Bart's, but yeah, sure. That sounds right. Wow. Sorry. I was trying to make you sound rich, but if you don't want that, that's fine. I don't get very far. You know, I try to stay local. Do you have a life partner, Max? I do. I do have a life partner, an LP. Does your life partner enjoy the absence of desire to explore the world? Or does your life partner share that? Well, my LP is English. By extraction, which means she's paler than me. So there's a lot of sun avoidance in our household. Got it, got it. So what kind of video games does she play? More RPG stuff? Or is she kind of solo? Or is she like working with teams? I don't really know what you're talking about, Jason. Smart move, Max. RPG. I don't know what that means. That's a role-playing game. Even Chris knows that, Max. Okay. Okay. I'm embarrassed to know that, but I do know that. I don't even want to know how you know that. So if you were to go on holiday, what's your top picks? Where do you see yourself returning to? Are you guys going to the English? countryside and stuff or is it are you staying somewhere else i think he's pulling up to marfa baby uh we do that we have done that have you been before that marfa i you know i was invited to marfa a few weeks ago i declined was that because the gun laws that was a mistake abortion stuff why'd you uh why'd you pass that up it was just a very weird sounding art uh art adjacent event that i'm not sure i wanted to be part of and judging by what i saw i think i made the right decision okay did you so

I did see this, and it's basically like a Marfa Art Week kind of vibe. Something. Honestly, I could not. So this was like an art convention, like a Basel sort of thing? Sort of thing? Yeah, maybe. Still, to this day, I don't know. Well, I don't know what's so confusing about this event, guys. Don't art fairs happen constantly around the world, and you go and get drunk? Constantly. It's a very remote location. And I don't know how much... I mean, I've been there actually a handful of times, and I quite like it. I don't even know what it is I like, but I feel like it's been... more developed since i've been which is better for me because you know i like a high-end kind of uh hotel he likes the parking structure stuff like that there's a great local gym in marfa that i would highly recommend to any visitors once you see the judd stuff and make your own way on over to the gym it's right there on main street okay got it sounds awesome now was this an offer to just attend or is there a flight and hotel accommodations included as well yeah this is the whole flight hotel this is maxi plus plus yeah this is and you said i got a lot of laying on my floor to do maybe next year yeah all right yeah listen these things well i don't get it you know i don't get it twisted a lot of writers journalists you know they confuse being invited to these things um with somebody they're actually wanting the presence of their company i mean they want you to write about it yes yes yes you know i know that i know they don't care about me they want me to write about it and they're hoping that they can bribe you with press by giving you a hotel and a flight right maybe some drink tickets max yeah max yeah uh nice a nice bottle of white in the room when you arrive oh sure no but i i'm sure but i thought the beauty i think the beauty of i think the beauty of your approach is that you're a little bit of a savage in a fun way way in an honest way is in my that's why that's part of the reason why do you have have you on the show because you know i get called the savage as well but you do it in a more intelligent way than i do okay and and i i think that makes it more palatable for maybe the circles you run in but i'm kind of talking to dumb dumbs so i have to make it a little bit

dumber i guess intelligent savage has like a mma gym kind of feel to it yeah i've not heard that so i'd like you to expand on that some more matt i mean you tell me i don't know that sounds cool i've never been called an intelligent savage before so so when you say savage chris is i mean uh pulling no punches with a with a review of yes he's pulling no punches but it's it's it's okay it's done in a way that is entertaining which is something i aspire to as well like if you're gonna be if you're going to say something is bad, it needs to be relatively humorous or at least the color around it needs to be bright. Let me put it that way. That puts it nicely. I've always wanted to say if you're going to criticize something, have it be constructive, but I like the bright. the bright energy around it. That's, that's a good way to put it. Well, because I don't think construct being constructive is necessary. I think you can just be like, Hey, this sucks. And these are the reasons I think so. Yeah. But there's a night, there's a way to put that where it's, I just think that we talk about this a lot on the show. And Max, if you listen, you know, this is that like, you know, criticism is, is in a, is at a point where it's, um, I don't know if it's dying, but it's definitely harder to find. Oh yeah. And also writing a bad review is easier, you know, but being mean is not the goal. I think eviscerating is more what you're trying to do. Well, I think, yeah, I think you're both right. Eviscerating feels mean to me, though, I will say. Yeah, I mean, it's very easy to complain. I mean, for me specifically, it's very easy to complain. I hate most things. But not everybody wants to read that, right? So I think, yeah, you have to make it somewhat. Yeah. There's only so many Jewish people in New York, right, Max? Wow. No, but I mean – You said it. I do think that – but you know what I mean. I don't know. But it feels like this comes – Yeah. No, you think you're right. But did you develop – is this style developed based on like working with certain editors and feedback you've received or is this kind of what you set out to do? Wow. I don't know. That's a good question. I've been fortunate enough to have good editors. I've been unfortunate enough to have a lot of bad editors.

There's a lot of places that I've kind of given up on pitching and writing for because I know that they're not keen to write something negative, whether that's because I don't know why they don't want the smoke. What are some of those places that feel anti? That's not an insult. Yeah, and it's different, too. It's different from what we're talking about. Art, I think, is more palatable to that. Fashion is not anymore. I used to write more about fashion, and I don't anymore because the number of times I've heard, well, yeah, I mean, that's... We agree, but also they're an advertiser, and so we can't run that. It's super depressing. Well, speak for yourself. I'm happy to keep all the advertisers happy. I know what you mean. It's not a problem for me. Totally. Yeah, you might change your tune when we have advertising for a fashion company. Yeah, I suppose I'd feel differently if I were being directly paid by the advertiser, but I never am. Yeah, that's a good point. It's a very good point. That does throw a wrench in the whole thing, I guess. Right. No, but I mean, I do think art is more ripe for it. But what about music? Because I feel like people aren't doing it with music anymore either. Yeah, I think you would know more about that. I don't read too much music criticism. I also don't listen to too much new music, I guess. Or I guess we're talking about pop music. Well, I mean, I guess, yeah. I mean, I think that we talk about this too, about how it's now considered cool and intellectual to dissect. like olivia rodrigo oh yeah you know where where whereas at one point it would have just been like that chick's hot and this is good or this sucks which is also not great there needs to be in between i know what you're talking about and i think that is yeah that's uh that's not the direction we should be going either but it's funny because because sometimes i because sometimes i read that stuff and i really like it and i find it interesting yeah but i i also think it's it's it's sometimes it's like making a little mountain out of a molehill if you will sure

Is that what poptimism is when you kind of talk about like, you know, Kendrick Lamar like it's John Cage? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know. And trying to find a historical throughline through Real Housewives franchises when it just is not there? It's there if you want it to be, Maxie. I mean, you can write anything. I like that. Yeah, that's right. No, but I think with the Real Housewives thing, it's more interesting to me because you can just dissect the ridiculousness of the characters more than you have. That never gets old to me because they're performing and you don't have to necessarily make it deep. because it's a little bit of a human condition situation whereas music i think it really is like you know we want to talk about how great something is because it's like hard to like right and that will that will never i will never understand that but it happens with clothes too like I don't like most clothes. I shouldn't have to understand it. I should either like it or it should hit me pretty easily and quickly. A lot of lay minds feel that same way, Chris. Oh, Jason, you're saying that you understand things. You're kind of on a different planet is what you're saying. Life's more fun when everything's not easy and just kind of packaged for you in your own little way that you prefer. It's good to have a little... struggle with things and i don't know i disagree i disagree i don't want to struggle i don't know you disagree i know you disagree but no but that goes struggling makes you a better person no but it's like with music particularly like if something doesn't catch me the first or second time i'm listening to it i'm i'm moving on there's too much there's too much out there right right right if it's not grabbing me by the balls There's 20 other songs that will grab me by the ball, so I'm going to go check those out. Yeah, that's what I mean. That makes absolute, complete sense for all forms of art. With art, like as far as fine art, you know, painting, sculpture, I could go on. I think that... That's where you'd laugh, Max? That's where you'd laugh? No, wait, I want you to keep going. Name other kinds of art. I prefer digital art. Yeah, that's one. Yeah, that's one. Yeah, Jason's more in it.

NFT cat, I'm more of a kind of classic masters. You know what I mean? That's more my vibe. I also like the art of comedy. Yeah, Jason thinks stand-up is Picasso, kind of in our modern times. Maybe. Well, I can tell you're not into comedy for the last 10 minutes, Max, but speaking of criticism, there's something to be said about all the art forms, comedy being one of them, that comedy is kind of the one... art forms where you could say this isn't the art form like if you look at a painting one of chris's master greats or a sculpture you're like i hate this sculpture but it is a sculpture right you know what i mean or i hate this movie but it is i saw this in the theater and it yeah it was an hour and a half long it's a movie right but if comedy doesn't make you laugh and you don't think it's funny, then you can say, this comedy is not comedy. Are there any other art forms like that? I can't think of any. You just mean, like, in the technical sense of, like, what is the book? Yeah, well, I guess there is a little technical sense, but... That could be it. But there's a lot of comedy that isn't funny. That's right. I would say 99.9%. There's a lot of, and most art is bad. Most art is bad. That's true. Most everything is bad. 99% of all art is bad. Yeah. And comedy is one of those. I just, I just mean lately with comedy, isn't there a lot of comedy where people, well, I don't know. Maybe that's just the impulse now where people are compelled to say that they think. The comedian isn't funny. That's right. Isn't Chappelle crashing and burning this week? Well, Jason prefers to defend Dave Chappelle and some of his comments. Okay, we can skip that. We can skip that? I don't tend to do that. I don't think Dave Chappelle is funny. Jason is a Chappelle apologist. And I would love to unpack that more, but he doesn't really have more to offer than I think it's funny. Just based on his record? Chris, if you really want to have a spirited discussion about it, I would love nothing more. We can go rounds if you'd like. I don't think Max is here to do that today, because I know that he hasn't watched any Dave Chappelle, probably, is my guess, since the program was on, because I know he's kind of a big most deaf guy. More of a Hedberg guy. Are you both a Hedberg and a most deaf guy?

Yeah. Sure. Well, I don't know. What are we talking about? Mostef is not a comedian. Max, well, speaking of that, speaking of the disciplines of hip-hop, let's see if we can pivot into something that you like to chew on a little bit more. You have discussed a lot of street art in the art world over the years. Is that fair to say? That's fair. Okay, what was your graffiti name growing up then? I did not actually tag myself. You grew up in New York, right? I'm shocked. I'm shocked to hear this news, Max. You've got all the trappings of a tag banger. I grew up in New York. I know, I'm just, what can I say, an aficionado. Are you a fan, an appreciator of graffiti and street art? Totally. Okay, good. 100%. Do you agree that it's the only... pure form of art still left in this world? Aside from stand-up comedy, of course. Of course. Do I agree with who said that? Who can we attribute that? Yeah, me. Yeah, sure. I mean, I've always loved the fact that graffiti is kind of one of, not one of, but there's no commerce. It ruins your life. Well, that's less true. It's rare to make any living off of it. That's less true now. That's less true now, but, you know, the Monopoly guy is not. Actual, I'm talking about real graffiti, you know? Yeah, and even so, I mean, you know, that's something I've written about where, you know, the 80s guys in New York. Like the Futuras and things like that? Futura, yeah, exactly. I mean, those guys were kind of toiling in obscurity for a while, and now Futura is like, you know. doing graffiti live on Louis Vuitton runways. Yeah, he's doing just fine. He's doing just fine. Yeah, where would Futura be without Ronnie Feig? That's something to think about. Well, I mean, he was super popular in the 80s, and, I mean, I did a feature on him a few years ago, and he kind of extracted himself from the art world because he got fed up with the machine of it. He did a lot of odd jobs. He was a bike messenger. He worked in the post office. You know, he deliberately, like, stepped out. Oh, I see. And now his resurgence is like,

He's making bread now, but he's doing it on his own terms a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Sounds like a great way to live, if you ask me. But most people I know growing up, and if you grew up in New York City, Max, I'm sure you knew a lot of taggers and graffiti kids and stuff over the years. Things typically... don't end up really working. I mean, you know, the best you can get is like, I'm a tattoo artist or, you know, I make t-shirts for a skate company or something like that. And it usually ends up with like a little bit of a nasty drug habit or something like that, you know? Well, yeah. I mean, like anything else, I mean, how many, you know, graduates of, you know, Yale get a show at Gagosian. I mean, it's the same idea. You're right. No, I think it is the same idea, but I do think it's been, I think it's been popularized to a point where, you know. Thanks to Jason's favorite Banksy. You know, it's tough to... It's tough. I mean... King Banksy kind of ruined it for everyone, didn't he? I was invited to a Banksy... I don't know what it is. Installation, immersive experience. The Banksy Brunch? I don't think I'm going to go to that. Wait, where? Let me guess. I know what you're talking about. I feel like there's one of those in every city in Europe. Yeah, they keep happening, don't they? Exit through the gift shop. Did we figure out who he was? Didn't we figure out who he was? They haven't clearly defined who it is, but a lot of people think it's the guy from Massive Attack. Oh, yeah. I love that rumor. That's definitely fake. I haven't heard that. That's probably the most popular conspiracy theory. They traced like a tour. They traced a Massive Attack tour routing to Banksy pieces and where they appeared, and it closely mirrored the Massive Attack tour routing. For Banksy heads, that's the grassy knoll. That's about as big as it gets. Yeah, I can't imagine carrying that much. I also don't know what's going to happen. Do you want him to get arrested? You know what I mean? Because I feel like it's fans that are doing this. I don't know if they realize that there's a negative outcome. No, I mean, it's just people in a world where there's no anonymity, there's no secrecy, everyone wants credit for everything, nobody can do anything without posting about it on social media, everyone's trying to get rich and famous and big. It's the same thing as Burial, making music anonymously, or I'm sure there's many other people in the world who do that, where you're like...

Because I can't have this thing, I am dying to have this thing, and there's no other reason why. And he won't get arrested. He's already kind of the same way Shepard Fairey hasn't been arrested. It's all good. I do like this one guy. His tag is Hectad, and he's been kind of waging a one-sided war. I don't know if you've seen these tags around. Yes. He does Hectad versus Banksy. I have not seen these. The stakes of which could not possibly be lower. I mean, I'm sure Banksy has no idea. Somebody in New York is waging a war against him on the streets. I mean, you have to respect it. And I do. I do. I like that, too. Yeah, one-sided war is kind of where I'm at with Jason because he doesn't know it either. But every three times a week, we're at war and I'm winning. Wow. You like that, Max? No, I do. I find your output impressive. Yeah, it's prolific. I mean, I don't know. We're just locked in. But, you know, this is like podcasting is like the easy form of writing is what I always tell people. Sure. I've never heard you say that before, Chris. Is that a joke? No, that wasn't a joke. You said is what I tell people. I've never heard you say that. It was interesting. I mean, it's just crazy because it's like if Max is working on a long profile of someone, that could be weeks of his life, if not more. You know what I mean? There's transcribing. There's editing. Obviously, this is being edited, but it's a little bit like... What you see is what you get. Yeah, it's a little bit like what you see is what you get. And I'm wondering... I mean, I think that's... I wonder... I don't know. I wonder what that means because it's like... I think that... a lot of people could pivot to this and it won't just be stand-up comedians doing podcasts anymore. You mean you don't have an editorial team that goes through this with fact-checking after we go? That's me. How can I help you, Max? How can I help you? The only fact-checking I do is I said a word and I think I did it the right way, but let me just double-check. Oh, that's good. Yeah, Jason checks to make sure he pronounces words correctly. And if myself or any guest pronounces it incorrectly, then they get left in. But I think that the other thing is with podcasting.

The goal is to make the conversation interesting and everybody sound cool and funny, whereas I think in your business, it's a little bit more – that's not the goal. Typically, that's the goal in podcasting. Not always, but 99% of the time. Yeah, I mean, but the beauty of writing a book or spending months or weeks or whatever toiling on something is hopefully you're creating something that gets everything out that you want to get out. With a podcast, if you're just kind of letting it spray, You know, you're just improvising things and moving all over the place tangentially. You don't get to really get all of your thoughts out in a perfect, succinct way. That's true. And that's kind of the main difference I've seen from swimming in both oceans. You know what I mean? I see that. I'm glad we all have thoughts about that. Way to podcast, guys. No, I agree with you. I totally agree with you. I don't think that, like... I also think that you can get a lot more voices into a story than you can a podcast, unless it's some wild shit sponsored by a grocery store where you're doing 10 episodes and it's a deep dive into something. I'm waiting to get that offer, but I haven't gotten there yet. All right, Max, how are you liking this podcast so far? This is my first podcast, if you couldn't tell. Let me pick the jaw up off the floor, buddy. Have you listened to podcasts before? No, I don't do that. Chris, let me interview Chris here. Why did we have Max on the podcast? Well, Max is pretty funny in my experience. Okay, okay. So I was hoping some of that would shine through. I'm also a fan of his work. I appreciate that. That's nice to hear. You know, I think what we're running into is the reason why I became a writer. Okay. Which is that I don't like to talk. You preferred it to write. Yeah, but you have to ask questions in your line of work. Sure. He has to, but he doesn't want to. You want me to interview you? If you have some questions, where the floor is... Max, please. The floor is yours. So you haven't listened to this podcast before, right? No, of course I have. Okay, okay. So then you know some things about us. I feel like you have got enough bullets in the gun to ask us a few questions that you might be wondering about. Yeah. You guys don't get tired of each other.

talking to each other no not really no that's kind of the crux of this podcast is that for some unbelievable reason we don't really get sick and tired of talking to each other i think that's sweet oh yeah i agree it is sweet yeah i mean you know i i think that some other podcasts it might turn into like a band situation where you know when you're when you're not on the road you don't really speak to each other right right right for me and jason i know this is going to really blow your mind uh if i have to talk to a lot of people you know in the course of a day yeah At the end of that day, I just need to lie down in a dark room because it's exhausting for me. I'm the same exact way, actually, Max. Are you a Virgo? I'm the same exact way after kind of an exhausting mentally, conversationally situation. I don't want to talk to anyone. Lights off. Silence. Just. i think it's healthy it's good to do i think it's healthy too but how are you how do you go about navigating like social situations um for what for work in general just in terms of your what prescriptions you have yeah yeah yeah what i know you're into painkillers but i'm talking more on like the anxiety stuff i don't What are your top three pills? What are your top three pills? And then which ones do you take for which situations? I don't. I don't take any, although. All right, Max, I was just looking at a tweet that you tweeted within the last week or two that said. on painkillers at freeze at the shed right that was just some painkillers pills or is that like a was that like a cocktail like i'm let me get a painkiller it's just a couple advil you know i tweaked my back oh advil it sounded cooler it's uh look i get it you writers always sensationalize all this stuff yeah you're says yeah this is that's some national inquire level sensationalism right there when i see you know exactly what that if you inferred If you inferred. Exactly what that fucking is. Chris Black spotted at TSA with a pocket full of painkillers. No one's going to think, oh, is this Tylenol? Ibuprofen. How did you tweak your back? I don't know. I'm just 35 and shit happens. It's very depressing. I got up wrong. Who knows? I guess if you're on the floor as much as you are, it's kind of a big climb. And I'm tall. Max, what are some things that kind of ignore you, get under your skin, irk you?

I was reminded of this question because when Chris asked you how you hurt your back, maybe there was a little sense of annoyance in your voice that I could relate to when somebody asked you a thing where it could be any number of variables and nobody really knows the answer to that question. But people are kind of dying. It's like a thing that I've been obsessed with lately of people wanting to know how you got something, how this happened, and how did you hurt your back? How did you get food poisoning? How did you catch COVID? Okay, so what are some other things? I'm just trying to find some through lines and similarities. So we're going to need to do a little yes anding. Are you familiar with that, Max? Okay, yes. Okay, you got the first part of yes and down. Now we got to work on the and. Okay, what annoys me? I found Balenciaga really annoying. We want to backtrack there a little bit. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay. Balenciaga. Do you have a latex allergy, or is it something else? Oh, not just the Sunday one. All of it. How many years has this guy been around? All of that. I kind of think he's just a genius, whether you like the clothes or not. I think he's a genius, too, but not for the reasons... people say he's a genius. In the way that Kanye West is a genius. What are your reasons? What are the max reasons? I think he's a genius because he's convinced a lot of people. I think Balenciaga works because it's very simple, but it's made to look like it's very complicated. Fashion people are known for one thing. They don't want to be outside of the joke. He's convinced a lot of people that there's a lot to understand when there really isn't. Fashion people, I think, are terrified. Yeah. Not getting the joke. Okay. That's interesting to me. And I think he understands that, you know, to a genius degree. Yeah. So I think he's a genius for that. I don't think he's a genius courtier. Yeah.

So he's mastered all the parts of having a successful clothing company except for the actual making of the clothes. Sure, yeah. I've been talking about this all week. I don't think people really care about clothes. I think people care about the moment, and I think they care about going to the thing. That's totally true because fashion... I think, Chris, you would agree, has never been more popular as a form of pop culture. And people have never looked worse. Oh, yeah. That's 100% true. I mean, yeah. So if people really cared about clothes, I mean, it would be the kind of opposite effect. But people like a show. They have to care about the clothes enough to go to the store and buy these $850 t-shirts or else none of this would happen, right? No. No, but they're participating in something. It's not about the actual garment. It's about... telegraphing like max said it's it's like telegraphing that i get the joke you know whatever that you know whatever that may may be right right right my i'm i'm okay Are there any clothing or fashion companies that sort of operate in that jokey, irony kind of world that you actually enjoy or you think that it is working successfully? I think there are plenty that work insofar as they make billions of dollars. Gucci is the same way, I think. Yeah, I would agree. Really? But I think if you look at people who wear Balenciaga and Gucci, I mean, do they look cool? I don't think so. no no no i mean balenciaga has become more ubiquitous than gucci at least in my neighborhood of glendale there's like middle school kids who wear balenciaga hoodies walking home who like you know haven't even hit puberty and it's the the shark is beyond jumped right i remember seeing like a 12 year old in soho a couple years ago like getting his mom to buy him something at gucci and just being like what the fuck like can you imagine asking your parents in middle school for a thousand dollar sweatshirt and then being like yeah it's fine yeah here here's my card you know what i mean like my mom would buy me a you know independent trucks t-shirt for 35 and be annoyed but chris you're when you're when your kid's asking you for the gucci you're gonna be like

Can we just get you with the Marnie sweater like Daddy told you to? Yeah, I mean, if you can't force your kids to dress like you want them to, you're not a good parent. I mean, that's kind of first and foremost where I'm going. Parenting 101. But I do think that, like, yeah, I mean, Gucci, like Alessandro and Jared Leto dressing like each other, that really sent me. Corny. Yeah. Corny. Yeah, no, it's awful. It, like, took me to a place where I was like, Jared Leto also has a full-on cult that no one's talking about. He leads an actual cult. Are you familiar with this, Jason? I'm talking about it. I've seen a photo of him in an all-white kind of draped blanket sheet thingy, and he's standing on a dirt hill, and then there's 54 women who don't look very good at all and don't seem to be of sound mental health. Just people who have... four cats and stuff like that right and they're all just kind of following him in this cult so i think he's probably wishing that his cult members were more looking like the people that he matches with on raya max do you know more about his cult than i do i feel like you might no i mean just from what uh you know i'm paying attention on on the internet i mean it seems like he should be going to jail any day now Really? For crimes against fashion or for indoctrinating people into his world? Well, I mean, in a just world. Okay. No, I think he's like some... I don't know. I don't want to get into that. I don't know anything except... I mean, we're obviously all speculating here. None of us have been to his criminal blood sacrifice sex cult that clearly is happening underneath. our noses but you know is it is it money laundering is it tax evasion no no is it sex crime it's like weird like weird sex stuff right i think it's i think it's i think it's ego combined with sex stuff but to be fair i mean he looks so fucking good for his age he must he had to do he had to trade something to the devil so i think he must be doing some nefarious activities to have i mean he's 50 years old so there was a classic illuminati sacrifice

And let's not forget the band. I mean, the band... They perform and make way too much money for how bad they are. So that's a deal with the Devil Tell, I would say. It's unbelievable. They're even worse than Queens of the Stone Age. Maybe we should forget the band. Don't bring them into Queens of the Stone Age. Those two bands have nothing to do with each other, Chris. Oh, I disagree. It's the same fan, I think. Queens of the Stone Age makes hard rock and kind of desert... stoner metal and 30 seconds to mars makes kind of spacey neutered pussy music like muse okay pitchfork i know what you're trying to do but that doesn't that's not i'm talking about the people who go see those bands they're both like alternative radio big bands and queens of stonies just happens to be a little bit cooler to someone not to me i think they're terrible well you know apples and oranges i don't need to explain the difference between those two we're getting off track fellas I'm sorry. Well, I didn't know Max was so passionate about Leto, but I can see – I can feel his blood boiling over there. Yeah, I mean, it's just – I mean, you think he likes Gucci? Of course. Of course. Right. So, I mean, that's all he does is, like, show up in a – nobody's talking about any of the weird stuff he's into except, you know, he's wearing a Gucci North Face T-shirt on the cover of a magazine. Do you find any difference between, like, an ironic inside on the joke Balenciaga? line of clothing versus like a vet mont line of clothing do you think they're both in the same category or one's more in on the joke than the other what's interesting about vet mont is i mean they were their whole thing was like you know kind of the back door boosting logos which was not even his idea it was kind of like a 90s and graffiti guys were doing that incidentally in the 90s too yeah but that's fine you know that's how he kind of broke into the i guess the public consciousness and when i first saw the uh the adidas uh leg of the show i was like oh that's pretty cool he's about to get sued by adidas on monday morning because they're famously litigious yeah and um but no it's an official collaboration which to me is just i mean who cares i don't know not me not me so i thought that was ironic i mean adidas is doing everything which is like i don't know how it's amazing to me that at this point anybody can do anything over and over with whoever and there's no

There's no consequence. It all just sells. I think it's annoying that Balenciaga is like, yes, we're going to just make an Adidas shirt that normally would be $50 at any store in the world, but we're going to do a slight change, and now it's $1,500, and you people are still going to buy it just because it's $1,500. But it looks the exact same. That seems just kind of like a limp dick whatever, but if a Vet Mon is like... I'm going to make the shirt that's going to be $1,500 and it's going to be the dumbest, ugliest shit on purpose. So then it's like a supreme, just like I love spending an exorbitant amount of money to look the worst as possible versus like everyone else. But you think most people appreciate that? Idea? I think they think it looks good. Yeah, and I guess that's who the joke is on. I don't think they've reached that plateau of enlightenment. Yeah, it's lonely up here, buddy. It's lonely up here, Max. That's why this podcast has so many things to talk about. Jason's definitely reached that. Yeah, I bet. No, I mean, yeah, I think that you're giving people a little too much credit, Jason, which is rare for you, I would have to say. I'm giving myself, only myself, the credit here. Oh, so you're saying that you would wear something ugly, and you do often wear something ugly, Because you're on a different plane and you understand it in a way that others don't. It's less of understand and more of appreciate. Or I could be deeply rooted fundamentally of a desire to be different from everyone else. And then having to go further down that discipline. So you think wearing Yeezys makes you different from everyone else? Wearing them in my specific, unique, one-of-a-kind way, yes. But I think Max and I have kind of covered this, that the audience that you're appealing to might not understand that and just think you're another Uber driver from Glendale. Yeah, and that's what gets my dick even harder. I want 100 people to think I look awful because I don't care about what 100 people think. I want the one whatever I am to look at me and be like, okay.

This fucking guy gets it. So you're saying you're doing it for the heads? That's all I've ever done, bro. Done it for the heads. Truly. No joke. Not kidding. If you're not doing it for the heads, I mean, it's just I don't want to appeal to everyone. Because then it's a boring life. Yeah, that's boring. Well, you fucked up by partnering up with me, baby, because we're top 40 on this side. We're going straight to the top. I know, and that's another beautiful juxtaposition of this podcast. My new album, Chris's House, is in stores everywhere, so just go check that out. You know what I'm saying? We're climbing the chart. The battle of Advance and Basic wages on yet another day. Well, I consider Basic Plus to be the sweet spot. What's the difference between Basic Plus and Advance Basic? I think Basic Plus is more of a new... That question was for Max, Chris, not you. You're too close. You're too close to this. I'm sorry. Yeah, Max, how would you define Basic Plus if you had to? Are those official taxonomies? I think it's an overall aesthetic, clothing being a big part of it. No, it's a lifestyle. A lifestyle. I don't want to take credit, but I believe that I actually coined advanced basic. Wow. Well, I'm just saying now that if you use it in one of your little stories, you're going to have to reference me. You know what I mean? Just to put it out there. Advanced basic means that you're a step above the baseline, like outdoor voices, sweet green, kind of millennial pink type of thing. you moved on like you might your boyfriend or girlfriend might take you to like the pavement reunion and you like know one or two songs but you're not like deeply entrenched wow this is i didn't uh i disagree with all this completely so wow so if you said um outdoor voice so if outdoor voices I would argue that Outdoor Voices would be advanced basic. I think Outdoor Voices is much more advanced than what I would consider to be basic. I think basic people don't even know what that is. Well, you would. You would think that because you've taken money from them before. So that's why. Exactly. His hands aren't clean. No, I mean, so if Outdoor Voices is advanced.

is basic, then what is Old Navy? Old Navy is mass. That's not even in the conversation. Old Navy is like a mass brand that doesn't appeal to anyone that's even basic. It's a totally different category. It's a totally different category. Okay, that's true. What's a word for basic? When you're more basic than basic, what's the word then? How do we categorize those people? No, no, no, that's not it. We have basic, we have advanced basic. And basic plus is all new from Disney, and you can subscribe to that. It's $14.99 per month. Just do it through Apple TV. Yeah, I was going to say basic plus sounds like my dental plan, but streaming service works as well. Basic would be what? Like Lululemon, and then an advanced basic would be, what's the other one that everyone likes? Aloe? Aloe yoga? Oh, Aloe yoga, yeah, kind of. Sure. Well, first of all, this is all based on looks. like everything else in our beautiful world. Of course. Chris, that was understood. Okay, and the Lululemon hotties have graduated to aloe and left Lululemon. They got scraps now. They got moms in the suburbs. I've noticed. Oh, have you? Max got his ears to the streets. Okay, well, Chris, how much of the advanced basic, I think to me like the crux or the spirit of the advanced basic versus somebody who's just advanced. is not has nothing to do with kind of financial limits i know yeah i agree it's all to do because a lot of it could just be like i really wish i could be wearing the aloe i just can't afford it or i wish i could be wearing this balenciaga but i can only afford my my basic uniqlo stuff but i think the the key crux of it is like you don't even know that that world out there exists and you're very happy being basic yeah i think there's yeah i think that's i think it's pure and beautiful yeah i think that's true you know what defines it to me is and this has been hot hot topic but doom wah like if you were wearing a doom wah piece of merch that is like that to me is almost as defining as as advanced basic as it could be right now whereas i would believe that is subterranean on the on that scale but but it's but it's not i mean it should be jason

No, you're right. You're right. You're right. It should be, but we're so far gone that that is now where we're at. And the bar is only getting lower. I mean, before long, it's going to be on the floor like Max on a hot day. Max, speaking of your tweet about your addiction to painkillers, I saw another tweet where you said, I'm starting to think. People who live on the West Coast have a bit of a complex about it. Are you talking about Jason's Magazine complex, or you mean like a mental thing? I think that was in, if I remember correctly, I saw somebody was launching something, could have been a podcast or a newsletter or one of these. They're all equally interchangeable. Yeah, about West Coast style. God damn it. God damn it. Okay, so like Dickies. Well, I guess you can make an argument about what West Coast style is, but it would probably be confined to one piece of writing. I don't know. That needs to be a series. What do you think of, as a New York native, what do you think of as West Coast style? What brand or person embodies that to you? Wow. I don't know. Nobody comes to mind. Is that an indictment of West Coast style? Maybe. Classic Max right there. Classic Max. Damn, wow. He's playing 3D chess. This is some TJ shit right here. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I guess I don't know what I would define it to be personally, but I think maybe shorts as a garment. would define it what does that mean shorts as a garment but i mean that's also functional i just think i just well you got to wear shorts because it's hot right yeah it's a it's a it's shorts are a year-round garment only in california like there and maybe i mean i don't even think in australia maybe definitely but as in in theory florida that's the only place any place that's hot All the time. Yeah. It's normal to wear shorts. Maybe not in a formal setting, but in regular and casual settings, it's fine. In Southern California, I think people think they do it with panache. Yeah. Where in Florida, they don't. I mean, I have a friend who hails from Southern California who was living in New York for a time and his thing was shorts year round. Even in the winter? And I think he probably thought it was even in the winter. And I think, you know, if anything, I would think like his, you know, his blood temperature needs to be like kept at a...

a California minimum, you know, and he would be cold all the time in New York. But I think he wore it as like kind of a badge of his West Coast nests. I don't know. I couldn't figure it out. I see a lot of people in New York who seem to be kind of native New Yorker or East Coast types who like to be the guy who wears shorts when it's like snowing and 30 degrees. What is that type of fella? Yeah, that's a thing. My favorite version of that is the shorts. with the canada goose yeah yeah i've seen yeah that's big here i've i've worn shorts and a puffer many many times it's a good it's you know when you're uh when you're driving at night does that feel good it does feel good you know when you're driving it it must feel good driving it feel good driving at night it's a little bit of a it's a little bit of a chill in the air but it's not freezing and you put the heater on in the car and then you kind of crack the windows to get a little breeze going and you're able to kind of create this perfect terrarium of uh of atmosphere that works out very well and and that's sort of what you achieve with the puffer that's on the west coast you're saying no that's that's anywhere where cars are able to drive and and temperatures fluctuate doesn't have to just be california but i'm talking about i've seen this i've seen this on the streets in a blizzard you know when it's like new york 10 degrees outside and there will be men you know shorts and the puffer it's like a a testosterone thing you know the same way we're saying we can just say olivia rodrigo's hot and the songs are good we don't have to dissect it i think it really does come down to wearing shorts for a lot of people is just plain old very comfortable and people like being comfortable okay I was expecting a classic Max response on this yes and improvisational podcast of okay. Well, what I thought, what I'm getting at is that I think it's an aesthetic choice for people. It's the same idea as like shorts with a sweatshirt, but it's a kind of more extreme expression of that. I think it's just as much of an aesthetic choice as it is a comfort choice. I feel the same way about Crocs. I feel the same way about Ugg boots. I don't think anyone thinks they look cool wearing these. Oh, that's absolutely not true, Jason. I think you do think you look cool.

I think you're trying to achieve a certain idea, which is your nonchalance, your imperviousness to weather. There's something else going on here. Jason feels attacked because he wears shorts, he wears Crocs. No, I don't feel attacked, but I've always said Crocs, Uggs, things like that. They're like heroin for your feet. It feels so good you don't care how bad you look. Jason, I have no problem believing that for you it's a complete comfort thing. I believe that. But I think you can tell who's doing it for maybe a less pure reason. That's right. Jason's intentions are pure and when I see other people doing it, I get upset. I don't mean to call those into question. I suspect you're wearing these shorts for impure reasons. Excuse me, sir. Why are you wearing those shorts? I can see the look in your eye. I don't believe you. These people aren't traveling the righteous path. No, I do, though. I think that what we've uncovered. Amen, brother. I think what we've uncovered somewhat today is that people only dress to look cool. And that everything else, you know, I don't know. I don't know what to believe. But I think that we can all agree that people are choosing their garments to look cool to others. And it doesn't go beyond that for me most of the time. Yeah, you just described the ridiculous world of fashion since the dawn of time, unfortunately. It's a thing that's so simple like you just described. but it's a thing that people devote their entire lives to, and I'm talking to two of them right now. Don't come for me. Don't come for me like that. There's more to life than costuming, Chris. It's called having a personality. I think what's inside really matters a lot. I don't think about that at all. We know. We know. But I do think the rise of comfortable clothing being fully acceptable by society has been the biggest shift in the way people dress in probably our lifetime.

yeah you know like that that did not like i mean definitely not for our parents but not even for us like the idea of someone being on tv and like sweatpants and sneakers and they're famous like that just i don't think that happened honestly i don't i mean chris do you want them to be suffering a little bit more perhaps no no no i it doesn't it doesn't necessarily bother me is right thanks for the assist max no no it doesn't necessarily bother me i just think it's the biggest shift aesthetically that we have experienced in our generation is that that is completely acceptable and people, that's like a mass, it's huge. That's how a majority of society looks. We all subconsciously decided that we're all going to start dressing bad on the airplane and it's going to be all good and then you're going to have Fran Levowitz yelling to nobody about it or you. No, no, but I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's a reality. I mean, just to bring it back to the shorts and Canada Goose ensemble. that doesn't look comfortable that doesn't look comfortable to me really so that means yeah because if you've got to wear the goose it's got to be like 10 degrees outside which means your legs have to be cold i mean to me that that that outfit would never occur to me and so that doesn't look comfortable which means um that you're trying to achieve something beyond comfort and the fact that i see this exact ensemble you know um you know This is a version of an outfit that has become quite prevalent in New York. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's absurd. It's an absurd... Would you look at it differently if I told you that wearing shorts and a lightweight puffer jacket filled with the softest feathers in the world is actually very comfortable? Would you believe that and consider that? Yeah, that sounds... Yes, of course, that sounds more reasonable. But if you're wearing the Arctic-tested... Oh, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. 40,000, Phil. You can tell that these guys think that they look like, I don't know, like JFK Jr. Yeah, they think they're JFK Jr. when they're literally just a third-year associate at a white-shoe law firm. Yeah, they look like you're having a psychic break in public. That's what you look like.

Yeah, I see. I mean, I've literally seen a guy in the Canada Goose jacket that's made for Arctic Rescue. Right, right. For Scaling Everest. With shorts going to Equinox. That's a real look. That's a real look. That's a real look. You see here. I'm not defending that client then. I feel like that's something you would maybe do, Jason, if you lived in New York. No, I'm not going to buy a fucking Canada Goose jacket that costs $4,000 that weighs 10 pounds. I got my Puffy. It squishes into a ball. It comes with me everywhere I want. Anything else is uncivilized, unless I really am scaling Everest. Spoken like a true West Coaster who's never experienced a real winter, when you need a jacket of that size. Right. I've experienced a real winter, but I wouldn't be foolish enough to live there the whole time. Good point. Yeah, good point. That's right. You're smarter than you look, Jason. Max, what neighborhood do you live in, just quickly? No, I don't need your address, but I just want to know. I'm in the meatpacking district. What? Okay. Yeah, it's very strange. Why the fuck do you live there? I have a rent-stabilized apartment. No, I mean, I think it's cool. So what are you? Can I get? Don't get me wrong. It's cool, man. Yeah, it's at the lip. I mean, it's super strange. Can I get two for pasties tonight at eight? Are you the plug or is that? I mean, you can if you want undercooked fries. I've been having some trouble getting into the standard Le Bon. The line on the weekends can be tough. Is there anything you can do for me, Max? Do not say undercooked fries. You haven't experienced that, Chris? Undercooked fries are a terrible thing, aren't they, Max? They're terrible. Should have known from them. A waste of life. I haven't gone to Pastis in a while. I mean, I've been to the new one. But, I mean, what are your haunts over there in the meatpacking? Where are you packing all this meat, Max? I mean, I try not to. I try to leave my neighborhood whenever possible. It's tough. I mean, there's no bodega, but there's a Christian Louboutin store. Like you need another pair of red bottoms. You know, if you need milk, you're out of luck. But if you need a pair of pumps, I got you. I like that we call them.

More people should call them pumps. Yeah, it's a nice throwback to different times. A bygone phrase. Yeah, very bygone. I agree. I need to make it over to the Meatpacking District to link up with you. Is Starbucks Reserve near you? Yeah, we got one of those. Max, we'll be out there in New York in a couple weeks. We'll be doing something for the Tribeca Film Festival. So maybe you can show me your meatpacking when we're out there. What do you say? I would love nothing more. Yeah, I think you need to come to the show. I need you and Jason to hang out. I'm really interested in you guys hanging out IRL. Are you ready, Max? Okay. Yeah, I'm ready. I know you don't want to hang out with me, Max, but humor me for 45, won't you? Absolutely. My pleasure. Let me paw at you like a small kitten. All right, Max. Thank you for taking the time to podcast with us. How does it feel? You need a cigarette now? Thank you, guys. Hey, I'm going to lie down right now. You already know. You already know I'm going to take all my clothes off and lay in the fetal position in the middle of my floor, baby. It's a Tuesday afternoon. Max, no, thank you for joining us. And people can find you on Twitter at Max Lakin, L-A-K-I-N, correct? Just your name? That's right. That's right.