719. - Patrick Radden Keefe

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? We're here. It's a rare Friday. recording but we'll do anything for our guests i think we we've we're feeling a little low energy probably after our eight hours at the chateau marmont yesterday preparing and then doing the gq minute of the year uh live stream i didn't drink obviously jason how are you feeling not super awesome not super awesome but it was it was relatively like we were being responsible i mean responsible-ish Yeah, you didn't seem twisted on the way out. I didn't seem twisted. I kind of took a rare tequila only, thanks to our good friends at Patron. You mean just like uncut raw, or you're saying you just stuck with one? Well, I mean, usually when I go out and I drink, if it's up to me, I'm drinking a vodka martini, Tito's martini, lemon twist, extra cold. But it's been chilly lately, and... I guess we had our day where we rehearsed and then we had like an hour off in between to, you know, where people could stop and eat lunch or dinner and get ready and all that stuff. And we used that time to record a podcast very quickly at our bungalow in the chateau, which happened again, you know, 12 hours ago. A company called Madre Mezcal sent me a bottle.

of mescal, and I just opened it up and had a shot with Sam Hine and Carolyn, and then that set the tone of just drinking neat tequila or mescal the whole night. And I felt pretty good. I mean, that's what they always say, right? The mixers are the bad ones. Yeah, and that's what Shibuzi says in his hit song, Shot No Chaser. Shibuzi didn't even look drunk. You know what I'm saying? I was a little upset. I wanted Shibuzi to be, like, falling over, like, sloppy style. But I guess that would be bad, too. It's like when you find out that Juicy J from 3-6 Mafia doesn't do drugs or drink alcohol at all. He's a Hollywood smoker. It's like when you find out that The Rock isn't really wrestling on WrestleMania 3-13, you know? It really does blow your mind. But I was happy to... We met something... Someone, the kind of people I've never met in my life, and that is a streamer. Because we were sharing our duties with our new friend, Phantom, who was on the red carpet, who is a, I guess, extremely popular streamer who's affiliated with the streamer, Kai Sennett. But Phantom lives in Woodstock, Georgia, because he's so popular. I mean, it seems like he's already been docked. It seems like he's so popular he has to live in a suburb an hour away of Atlanta because people show up at his house because he's streaming. Because they're like, I watch this guy play a video game for more than I've ever hung out with my own family, and I just want to peek through the windows and see him with my own two eyes. So he has to sort of live in secrecy out in the woods, out in Chattahoochee. and it was a bittersweet i was like how's the internet out there in fucking woodstock georgia and he's like i made it good i made it good he said i don't know how much money he spent to to get wi-fi strong what if he did it like what if he did it for like a charity like he like he did it for the whole community as a give back program he he also mr beast type shit

Exactly. Yeah, he gives back. I liked him, but I just didn't know. I've never encountered a streamer of that level, IRL. So I had a lot of questions, which he was kind enough to answer. I feel like most streamers, they're just so maladjusted from society and humanity that they have no touch with reality. But he looked like he still had one foot in, one foot out, which was nice to see. That's true. It's just such a weird thing because it's like a thought that I've had as a medium-level podcast host who's not featured on TikTok or Reels where I'm like, what's the point of saying a funny joke or a cool anecdote at a dinner party if it's not being recorded where I can monetize it and just get adoration and respect from people all over the world? I can't even imagine what those guys go through. If the camera is not on, how nonverbal they must be. They got to be on vocal rest. They can't waste anything. Shout out goes to Davide, who was on vocal rest last night. He lost his voice. What a shame. Felt bad for him. What, from talking about Kashmir too loudly? It caught up with him finally? I'm assuming that's what happened, yeah. I'm sorry. I gave a shout out yesterday. I was mentioning when we were talking about Taylor Lorenz, her Coastal Elite audience, and I gave a shout out to... Our listeners in Bangor, Maine. And I had a lot of DMs in and around the Nova Scotian area of North America who were like, bro, Bangor, Maine. So I guess we need to go do a live show there or something. I don't know. Yeah, I'm good. But I do know it's a beautiful place. Maine is a beautiful place, but I haven't really spent any time discovering it. Portland I've been to, which is pretty charming. It probably feels like... Brooklyn now more than it did then. Bangor, Maine must have been top of mind because I just read Stephen King's memoir writing book called On Writing, I think. He's a Bangor batty. Bangor batty reporting for duty. And I also wanted to give a quick thank you and a shout out to our friend Breezy over at Jacques-Marie Marge for hooking us up with some very, very amazing sunglasses. I'm coming out of sunglasses boycott.

And I am now spectacled up. Well, I'm glad that after I've spent probably $2,000 or more of my, maybe three, let's say three. $2,000 gets you half a pair of sunglasses over there. $1,000 a pair. So let's say I've had at least one get stolen. I've got three on me. So it feels like it was time, and it's the only brand of sunglasses that matters is the reality, and that's why they're able to be so expensive. But yeah, it's a great product. They're the Tutu's tortilla chips of sunglasses, some are saying. Exactly. I was happy to wear them last night. I was really happy to wear them last night. I was able to cut out a little early, and Rostam and I had dinner downstairs, and you kept it going, but then you showed up with Raisin Cane's. Like, you showed up with some Raisin Cane's just on you, like loose in a paper boat with some sauce. And I didn't know. Was there a Raisin Cane's, like, installation? Was there a truck somewhere? Yeah, there was a truck. The truck was parked in front of Chateau Marmont. No, I didn't see that at all. I only saw Pharrell getting harassed by PETA. I didn't see the Raisin Cane. Oh, yeah, bro. They went crazy. Skateboard PETA. Skateboard PETA guy. I think they come at him a lot now because of the LV thing. Poor guy. I know. Literally. That's probably why he moved to Paris. Not because the house was there. It's because they don't care about PETA in France. You know they don't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck about anything in France. They say, what's racism? What's fur? I don't know what any of that shit is. We don't give a fuck. Give me some more mayonnaise. It is a beautiful country. I was listening to an interview with a chef, and they said something that I almost wanted to talk to Pharrell about, but we didn't have time because it would have been a little too heady. Somebody was quoted saying, you don't go to France to learn how to do things. You go to France to learn why you do things. And I was like, oh, I can't wait to tell Brokeback P about that one and let him spit. But yeah, Pharrell,

that everything that they say about him is true. He looks like he is 19 years old, even though he's 50, skin as tight as a newborn's arse. The yellow gold diamonds in the teeth, ears, mouth, and anus were such a brilliant color, sunflower yellow. Wouldn't you agree, Chris? The teeth were pretty breathtaking, I have to say. Usually going full mouth pause seems crazy to me. um but it look kanye's look crazy his look somehow and the color is it is it's no joke you know what i mean it's not subtle by any means but it does work like pharrell he's only gonna wear a a mouth grill if it is truly the best of the best of the best there's you know he's he's at risk of looking like he's wearing a a jake paul style mouth guard or even a logan paul style mouth guard don't bring not logan not i'm a low head bro That's what low head means now. Yeah, anyway, look, it was fun. I'm happy that we got to, before we went out, we chatted with John Mulaney for a little while and found out that he's an OC guy, which I felt like really, I feel like that really opened the door. Yeah, well, I learned that he was an OC guy after reading his GQ or after listening to his GQ article while I was walking the dogs. Yeah, he's living in Laguna Beach. And I was like, damn, when my Asian wife and I retire to Orange County, I plan to live in the same part of town as long as I end up making all the millions of dollars that you and your wife have made. Olivia Munns is still spending G4 money, so they're good out there. They're good out in Laguna. They got a pool and shit. You know what I mean? They're good. I got a pool off of this Minecraft money, baby, off this Wolfenstein 3D money. That's for the old heads out there. All right, so we've got our guest on the line today, Patrick Redden Keefe. He's been on before an acclaimed writer that had his book, Say Noten, Pulitzer Prize Award winning book, Say Noten. I want to ask Patrick if he got more book sales from that award or from Dua Lipa taking a selfie with it. But that book has been...

Adopted and adapted into a great Hulu FX television show that is available for viewing now. And if you pick up a copy of Variety magazine, Hollywood's number one magazine on the very cover is a quote from How Long Gone. Sort of solidifying our place as Hollywood media elites. We are basically trending higher than Puck at this point. And Chris, I'm not going to be able to make the Puck event tonight because I'm too hungover. Let's give Patrick Rattenkiff a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together, a cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app.

using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Thank you for joining us. How on earth... Did the hundreds of people that work at Hulu FX, as well as several of the organizations that you're affiliated with, how did they land on my quote to use? Because it feels like there might have been someone maybe more prestigious to give that line to. That's where you're on, Chris. You got an early look, man. You came to that screening. It wasn't the best quote. It was the first quote. Okay, that makes a lot more sense now. Thank you for putting it in a way that I understand. First to market, there is a benefit for that. But it must be said, as a visual aid for viewers, for listeners who won't have seen it, the quote is, captivating motherfucking television. And it's like... huge splash across the cover of variety it's the now iconic image of the you know say nothing she's got the finger above the mouth as if she's telling you not to say anything the the nice kind of irish turtleneck is pulled up over there and i i'm glad that they quoted how long gone with our uh classic textbook font as well it's great man you know good for the branding thank you for that patrick yeah it's going right up on my wall this reminds me of when i see movie posters that have like glowing reviews on them when you look closely yeah yeah totally right i'm like oh the austin chronicle really loved anora i gotta go see it i mean i'll take the austin chronicle it's like uh you know all movies 999 you know the santa cruz mud skipper gave it four out of five and i think that's pretty good they're usually tough This thing, you've got to see this thing, real popcorn. I don't know if, okay, well, happy that we could help in any way that we can. I did see the show. I did like the show. But I was also in a room full of other people getting an early look. But it felt like some kind of industry head, some guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It didn't seem like a lot of journalists. Well, it was Chris and then a bunch of people who have very reputable letterbox accounts, but I don't know if that was going to be a variety of material. They actually call it a tastemaker screening. To me, it's just like I can't say that phrase with a straight face. For a number of understandable reasons. But it was a tastemaker screening. Yeah, I don't know what that means either, because I feel like Tastemaker has been replaced by influencer as a term. I'll actually take Tastemaker over influencer. If they called it an influencer screening, forget it. No, I will. I wouldn't go to that myself with my own show. But it just feels like it's a kind of they haven't updated the vernacular. In hindsight. tastemaker wasn't so bad you know at the time you know in the 90s 2000s should have quit while i was ahead yeah yeah we thought we thought that was bad it only gets worse much much like everything else so patrick what's up bro how are you we're hung over from the gq man of the year party oh how was that i thought i saw you there you did oh what a treat you didn't we got to interview the rock cat williams john mulaney oh hannah einbinder from hbo's hacks Who else did we talk to? Pharrell. Who do you think was the most boring out of those five people Jason just named? Pharrell. Yes. Wow. See, this is why you do what you do, baby. That's why you're in the big leagues. Not that Pharrell isn't one of our greatest gifts that we have, but he's reached this new level of celebrity. He does not need to please you. Yeah, he's not here for the repartee. No, and I'm totally fine with that. I did not expect Pharrell to joke around with Jason and I by any means, and he delivered on that promise. He did not joke around with us at all. Yeah, he made sure to not joke around with us. I was trying to find that quote, Chris, that David Rudnick, friend of the show, kind of mesmerized by how irrelevant Pharrell has become. He has been given his own Lego movie biopic.

at the helm of Louis Vuitton fashion line and somehow become significantly less famous in the process, meaning no longer touches him. It's like a form of enlightenment. Patrick, you got a big brain on you. What say you? It's a higher plane. I buy it. I mean, I don't think he's wrong, but I also think he is. I mean, I think fame's just different, you know, than it used to be. I think that's true, but I also think, how can I put this in a way that won't offend you guys? The like, there's no situation, you're probably the best conceivable version of this, but there's no situation where it's like a red carpet thing, you're walking into something, and between point A and point, between like the limo and where you're going, you're going to stop and have 60 seconds of conversation with someone. There's no version of that. Yeah, your version is the best version, but there's like an inescapably asinine aspect to that. So if you're Pharrell, the idea that you've been doing that for like 30 years or whatever it is, and at a certain point, you're like, you know what? Yeah, I can't play the game anymore. At a certain point, you're like, fuck it. Lego, let's do the biopic. I don't care. Let's do it. I fucking love toys. I got kids now. I don't give a shit. I really I really respect it. But he does have like a. And I'm sure you've experienced this, and this isn't true about all people that are famous, but he does have a certain aura about him that is very, very powerful. Oh, sure. It's always nice when someone, Cat Williams possesses that as well. It's a very different aura, but it's the same kind of thing. Yeah, Cat Williams does it, but as a straight guy. So it's kind of interesting to A, B, the two, him and Pharrell, you know what I mean? Just to see them next to each other. Is Pharrell physically tiny? No, he's not. He seems it to me. No? No, he's not super tiny. He's not dinky, but he is not large. And I do remember, like, there's a photo of the three of us all seated in conversation. conversation and we all look sort of normal like i don't look insane in comparison to him you're telling me the neck next next to you he doesn't look only only seated only seated standing well listen on on this zoom you and i are the same height exactly that's right that's right i will say that's why we zoom we don't when pharrell pharrell was obviously quick to get up out of his seat as soon as the director yelled cut and he was done he wasn't really going to stick run and chit chat with us but he was wearing these louis viton

boot cut jeans because it was a rodeo themed activation and from behind you know he was kind of looking like a a little baddie you know he kind of looked like ice spice from behind after post ozempic of course patrick but you know he kind of had a little apple bottom shape with a nice flare jean out to him and i'm just thinking about him rapping with clips mr me too you know selling coke shooting people and i'm like the So much has changed since the old Pharrell. This is amazing. I feel like you're painting the picture here. I feel like I was there. Well, Jason, I painted on his fat little ass, too. Sorry, what did you say, Chris? I let my artist grow. I don't think Pharrell ever sold Coke, first of all. I think he was the guy in the crew that didn't sell Coke that was actually good at making music. Because most of the guys that sell Coke want to make music. He didn't even want to drive the getaway car. He was out. No, he was not. He was not driving the getaway Mitsubishi clips. Yeah, he had other plans, but it was fun. I'm happy to be home. Where was it? Chateau Marmont. It's available. You can watch the whole live stream. It's 45 minutes to an hour on GQ.com. Check it out. You got nothing, but I know you got nothing, but I'm there, man. I'm there. We watch you. We watch you. We watch your fucking show. It's time for some payback. It's the least I can do it for you. I'll say that's a, that's a captivating motherfucking live stream. This is a captivating motherfucking web stream. No, I love that. I'm doing a, I, so my, my sons play tennis and they play in tournaments. I can tell you now, if you have kids, do not get them into tennis because once you get into the tournament thing, they're 12 and 14. So this is just to say I'm going to be spending like six hours this evening driving to and from deepest Long Island. If I had the excuse of saying, listen, there's this live stream, I have to stay home and watch.

You guys can take an Uber, right? I would take it. So Jake Paul is fighting Mike Tyson, and it's live-streamed on Netflix for free, no pay-per-view, and you're choosing to hang out with your family at a tennis tournament instead of that. It's kind of crazy. Can you imagine? But presumably you can watch it after the fact. Don't worry. You can watch it after the fact. Yeah, everything Netflix does that is live is only live for the time that it is. If both of your sons win tonight, then you can let them watch it. If either of them lose, then, you know, no dice. But I think one more. They'll be in the basement, yeah. They'll be in the basement. You know, one more. hulu deal and maybe we'll get a driver to have somebody else take them kids to the damn tournament what do you think a boy can a boy can dream man i think you should make them walk you know if they want to be out to long island yeah all right diddy like let's do it you know let's let's let's put some hair on the level of yeah the level of like parental commitment that is involved you know it's like a choice where well i think it's not you know they're making a choice for you that's what i've always been told about kind of a a certain level of travel sports at that age but i feel like at least with tennis and and you you i could be very wrong it feels like there's less gear you know what i mean for sure than like baseball or hockey yeah there's so much stuff yeah it's not like i mean the other thing is i really shouldn't complain because it's the because the Any sport that involves rink time or pool time, those are the ones, at least in the tri-state area, where you talk to people and they're like, yeah, I get up at 4.30 in the morning so my kid can go and practice the butterfly stroke. Yeah, yeah. That is much worse. That costs more than money. That costs time. There's only so much. I mean, there's a lot I'll sacrifice, but not sleep. Oh, that's where you draw the line. I draw the line at sleep, yeah. what are you an eight hour guy how no i mean i don't i'm like i need a good seven hours if i get less than seven you turn into a little cranky guy yeah i'm in a bad mood i could see you being a little i could see you being a little grumpy it comes out it's not so yeah i need my sleep i got about four and a half last night um but just because of like

I got home at probably 11 and then got in bed at midnight, woke up at like 4.45. Because you guys bounce back and forth so often. Is there some sort of weird equilibrium that you, you know what I mean? Do you just kind of maintain mountain time or whatever? I have somehow, I think it really comes down to not drinking, but I can kind of just thug it out no matter what. I could fly to Singapore and wake up and I'm going to feel shitty for a couple hours and I just exercise and kind of splash some cold water in my face and get after it. It's funny because for me, I mean, there are a variety of ways in which it would be hard for me to imagine a life without alcohol in it. But one of them actually is offsetting, you know, it is kind of correcting for jet lag. Yeah. Where it's just like something to kind of. Using your Suntory time to kind of get you to sleep. Absolutely, man, to adjust. You've got to round those edges off with a little Suntory time. But there's also drugs and drugs. Yeah, that's never been my – there was a guy that I knew, a guy I went to high school with. I remember – Spending some time with a guy I went to high school with later when we were in our 20s and realizing that this guy, like when he needed to wake up in the morning, he took a pill. When he needed to sleep at night, he took a pill. Like it was a very kind of there's a pill for everything kind of deal. And there really is. So you're talking he's a drug addict. I think that's maybe the word I'm looking for. But it's more just the idea that like that, you know, that you can. I could see myself reaching a point where it was impossible for me to fall asleep at all without a pill, and that's not a place I want to be. Yeah, we've all been there. I'm wondering when the appropriate juncture for me to jump in and say that Say Nothing didn't win the Pulitzer Prize is. Now is a good time. All right, this episode of How Long Gone has brought you back. Quince.

Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina. Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds

Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last. Ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. I'm like kind of tempted to let it hang, you know? It's like, hey, they said it, not me. It won something, right? How long gone is great for quoting stuff. It won something. And on some level, these prizes are all interchangeable. What is the best award that it was awarded? I'm sure it was more than one, of course. Not the Pulitzer. Pulitzer's number one. Pulitzer's the top of the top. Well, that's what I mean. If it was some, you know. I mean. The number one of the awards that he actually got. Oh, I see. I see. It won the National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction. What else you got? What circle are they sitting in? What the fuck? What's the circle? It's the circle that isn't the Pulitzer circle. Okay. There's a couple circles out there. It's not the one you really, really want. It's a concentric circle thing. This is one of the others. I want to ask about. Wait, hold on. In 2024, the year of now. The New York Times named Say Nothing the 19th best book of the 21st century. That's pretty fucking good. That's good, yeah. That's not an award, though. That's not an award. That's just press. That wasn't me being modest. That was me being particular. But this is for a century, fam. This is not my holiday season. I will say that when that... when that happened over the summer, we were living in Barcelona this summer and, uh, we got that news and my wife was with me and I was like, holy fuck, that's amazing. You know, uh, best of the century. And she was like, she was like only 19. Well, she was, well, no, what she said was there's only been 24 years. Like, it's not actually like, how are we like, how are we counting century here? You know?

Okay, so she's debating the New York Times math, which we've all done, mostly with presidential polls. But I'm glad that she's taking it down to the level where it's... She's got issues with the data journalists on this one. Yeah, we're going to bring it home. I've always wondered about some of these awards and the prestige, and you get to stamp it on the front of your paperback so people pick it up at Hudson News. Is there a cash prize attached to any of these, or is it merely recognition? I think it's generally just recognition. There might be... I'll put it to you this way. Maybe there are big cash prizes, but not for the ones I've won. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, let me take that back. There was a prize that my book, Empire of Pain, won in the UK, which was cash and was a decent amount of money. Nice. So they gave you some, okay, and pounds. It's strong over there. I don't know in the month in question whether that was an advantage. Okay, you're right. For the podcast awards, you have to pay them a little bit. Is the way it works, unfortunately. Oh, believe me, I've got a few of those over my shoulder that you can maybe see back there. And this was back from, like, this is 2020, so it was when they were still making up new podcast awards. Yeah, we don't get invited to the iHeart Awards. It's cool that they do their own award show, and they own a network as well. So it's kind of like, who on earth is going to win this? Who is it going to be this year? You don't say. You don't say. It was funny because when Wind of Change, my podcast came out in 2020, it was a weird time with the pandemic. It was like a big time for podcasts, but it was the pandemic. It was a strange time. And the Podcast Academy, which was a new thing. Do you know about this? I totally want to hear your take on this. So we got a call saying like the Podcast Academy, which is this thing that started like a month ago. is going to have an awards show it's a guy in north hollywood a virtual award show no and they and they have these awards called the they're called the ambies do you know this sounds like this sounds like the office so here's the thing i i think at the time it was what you didn't know how flattered to be or not because it's one of those things you think oh well maybe you know years from now maybe the ambies will be a huge thing and i'll be like i was i'm like the og you know like original uh

first year of the ambies ambi winner yeah yeah these ambies back there but i haven't i haven't checked to see if they're uh if they've continued i'm looking at the ambies it's just ambies.com the award for excellence in audio and yeah is it a thing it's a who's who of wondery and you know i'm sure quest love has 11 ambies Questlove had to get rid of some of his fucking nonstick cookware to make room for his ambies. Questlove putting me in my place again. Questlove truly, that guy's got his motherfucking little paws and everything. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. There's always some new shit that people are like, you won't believe. It's unbelievable. I'm like, I don't. It is believable. This is all he fucking does. This is all he does. He's got a documentary. He's got a podcast. He's got a cookbook. I guess we do the same shit. He's DJing the opening of a restaurant somewhere uptown. Yeah, he does it. He does it all. Okay, so you've received several awards. Okay, but you were featured on Dua Lipa's Instagram. Wait, tell me about this. Were you able to track any sales from that? So... Yeah, just walk us through how it felt. Woke up. Yeah, this is an interesting... So that came kind of out of nowhere. I got a call. It was actually hilarious the way this whole thing started was I was at a party. I was a friend's birthday party, and it was late. And I got a text message from one of my agents in L.A., so three hours behind, on like a Saturday night saying, hey, Dua Lipa would like your phone number. Can we give it to her? I'll have to ask my wife. so i so i wrote back and said you know yes absolutely by all means yeah you said you said hell yeah is this a prank i didn't say you know there was no like what is this about or anything um i was just like yeah by all means and of course and then the funny thing is then i didn't hear anything she didn't call and a long period of time went by like months went by and then um months yeah but then we found out she's got this book club which actually is

Kind of a real thing. She has authors on. She really reads the books. She wanted to do this podcast where we would Zoom, and she would ask me about Say Nothing. Kind of like what we're doing right now. It's kind of like what we're doing right now. I want to be clear. This is fully clothed. This is above board. It is. I will say, though, there's a video on YouTube, and you do not want to be featured in any split screen. My old ass does not want to be on any split screen with Dua Lipa. To be fair, she's not looking her best either. You're a connoisseur. People know my thoughts on Dua. What are your thoughts on Dua? Well, really quick, how long between her contacting you and getting the digits did she ghost you? How long did she make you wait by the phone? I was waiting by the phone for weeks on end. It was a long period of time. She went Houdini for two months on you. It's a busy schedule. They have all these writers coming on. I think it's cool. It was great. We had a genuinely really great conversation with the book. I mean, I think her, Kaya Gerber, other attractive, talented, you know, model-esque people shining a light on reading and authors. I think it's a good thing overall, using your powers of physical beauty. For good. For the good of mental intelligence and growth. To help the rest of us. Who else is going to listen to people more? Who's going to listen to people more? You know what I mean? I mean, yeah, I think that's right. Get on all fours, bark like a dog, I'm going to do it. You know, I'll read the fucking book. Okay, I like to hear that. I mean, I will say, you know, she's got like 80 million Instagram followers, right? So it's not like on the back of that we sold 80 million copies of my book. No, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think... Of course. I don't know what actually... The only thing I've ever heard somebody tell me moves the needle is Bill Maher. Oh, is that right? I was told... Brace and Ellis told us that Bill Maher sold the most books, like, overnight. Oh, that's so interesting. From being on.

Or you know what? Maybe it was something more sinister. Maybe it was like Fox News or something. Yeah, I think it was Fox News. No, I think it was Tucker. It was Tucker. Because they didn't know who he was. You know what I mean? These people have never heard of him. Oh, that's interesting. It was like a book of essays. It was like white. He probably had to pretend that he was straight. Yeah, he definitely did. Tucker pretends he's straight every episode, so it's easy to kind of slip into that. And all the Tucker viewers are like, well, in that case, and they go over to Amazon and buy the book. But I do think if you come from any sort of – yeah, if you go to like the other side and give them your time and the book is – I think that could work. But what actually works? Dua Lipa? Well, for books, it's NPR. Really? Yeah, because it's like you're – What is the targeted audience that actually is going to buy a book? NPR is big. People who know how to read is a good first swap. Yeah, that's a good place to start. Chris was sharing some literacy data recently, and it was not looking good for American readers. About half of us are reading on a sixth grade level or above. Yeah, the trend lines for a guy like me don't look especially promising in the year 2024. The trend lines. I just I feel like that. I feel like these. Yeah, but I do. I think there's a certain kind of celebrity now that wants to be seen as as, you know, multifaceted. And what better way than to talk about? Well, it is. I will say it's amazing when when my book about the Sacklers came out, there was a. Hilariously, it was not an engineered thing. It was just like a paparazzi photo. But Sarah Jessica Parker was on the street, and she had the hardcover under her arm. And she's a big reader and is always boosting books on her Instagram, what have you. But that was one where... where that photo, it was one of those weird things where it wasn't that she had it in a book club. It was literally that the picture was in, you know, whatever, Hello Magazine or something that's kind of strange. It was a candid, organic discovery. Exactly. This all started, or the first time I remember this was there was a Kendall Jenner on a yacht reading a very popular book that had like a kind of iconic cover, not iconic, but a recognizable cover, and I'm blanking on it, Jason. You know who it is.

She's been on this podcast. She's a full freak. This is going to kill me. No, we have to figure out who it is. It's called Literally Show Me a Healthy Person. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. But it was just a... What's her name, though? Darcy Wilder. Darcy Wilder. And there's a friend of mine named Durga had a book that was the same. It felt like... Instagram was obviously around, but it felt like before... You would see this on the Daily Mail, like you're saying, like Sarah Jessica Parker thing. It's in Star Magazine. It's kind of funny because when you think about album art for music and also the tiles when they do movies, or honestly, even with book jackets now, everything is... When they're thinking about the way those should look, everything is – it's all about, like, how much it's going to scan. Like, what will be legible if you're looking at it and it's a tiny little tile on your phone? But it's interesting to think about how that plays into, you know, like a telephoto Zoom shot of somebody on a yacht, on, like, David Geffen's yacht, you know? I found out that those – I can't remember who told us this, but we found out that those photos are taken often by the photographers on a jet ski. Wow. which is very sick. It makes it very, it's very James Bond. It's very kind of late 90s Bond movie espionage vibe going on. With a very fast shutter. Very fast shutter, but I was just like, damn. Ocean camo lens kit, it's custom. I never thought about how they got those pictures. I was just like, oh, I don't know. They're probably just like on land. As print media is making way for audio books. Kindles, e-readers, things like that. I guess we could hit a thing because now when you go on Netflix or other streaming sites, they will have the placeholder title cards change with the trend. So it'll be the actual cover of the movie and if it's not performing well or based on your data and your demographic and your age and how much money you make, there's 10 different pictures and it'll be like, oh.

This household is just three horny guys, so we'll have the picture of Sidney Sweeney's tits as the main thingy. But then instead, this one. This is the thing where the movie is 12 Years a Slave, and the image you see is Brad Pitt. Exactly. Or I saw one yesterday where it's for the movie Casino, and it just has two guys. smiling and laughing like it's an old buddy rom-com flick. You have no idea that this guy's about to chop this guy's finger off. That's because they know that you'll click on anything, Joe Pesci. Jason's a known Pesci guy. You see Pesci, you see Bobby De Niro having a nice belly laugh. You're like, oh no, this movie sounds great. It's probably not about cocaine ruining a family. They do that Hulu was doing that yesterday. They released our show. Yeah. It went live yesterday, and I got a text saying that they were already sort of A-B testing in terms of, because when they put it in the hero spot, how many people click on it when it's this image versus that image? Yeah. So they do that stuff in real time. I know that I'm sure you're an executive producer on the show, but I like that you're getting all these kind of updates from the front lines. I mean, would you prefer not to or are you a dating guy yourself? I'm just interested in this stuff. And I didn't – I did – the producers who – I did this with Nina Jacobson and Brad Simpson are people I've known for a long time. Brad I had known for like 10 years before we made the show together. He'd just been a friend. I just learned a lot from them. They're really good at this stuff. And so, you know, I mean, I'm keeping my day job, but it's fun to learn about, you know, all the stuff that goes, all that stuff. Well, I mean, as an executive producer on the show, I'm assuming that once you had the deal done, that was worked into the contract, that you get an EP credit. But what actual work were you doing on that in terms of production?

Zero. We know that producers don't do anything. Even I know that. I was just doing damage at the craft services table. You'd send out the call sheet every night and midnight, of course, but, I mean, beyond that, what else was going on? Beyond that, yeah. This was the rare. I've definitely had ones that are like that where I'm a producer and kind of a name. I go to set for a day. Nobody actually wants to hear from me. Nobody actually wants to hear from me at all. Sure. Grab a couple Oreos, head out. And I'm out. And they're happy to, you know, it's all like, oh, no, you're leaving? And they're very happy to see me go. Oh, so good to meet you. Exactly. I was in it. I was in it on this. Like, I moved my family to London for part of it. I was on set for much of the shoot. I helped hire everybody. I was super involved in casting, which was incredibly fun. But that's the kind of thing I... I found hugely enjoyable. We were working with this one, Nina gold. He's like the, you know, she does all the casting for the crown and for game of Thrones and, um, and getting, you know, some little part and you get sent 20 little two minute videos of these different actors and getting to kind of weigh in. This is my sales tape. It was incredible. I want to, well, okay. When you're looking at those as a, you know, novice, are you really like, I mean, did any of your number one draft picks make it to the final? Yeah, so a couple. So there's one guy in particular. Well, there are two people who I pushed really hard for because I thought they were incredible, and they both ended up in the show. Now, it's not a situation where I was in a, you know, I wasn't a showrunner, so it's not like I didn't have absolute say about anything, but I was definitely a voice. And absolutely, there were people who I thought, and particularly because one of the characters in the show is Jerry Adams, who's based on a real guy. And he's sort of the only character who anybody, you know, you could go to YouTube and there's a thousand videos of Jerry Adams. You know what he looks and sounds like. And so it was because he went on to become a politician. Yeah. Well-known figure. Yeah. So that's one where you need somebody who, you know, it's not like an SNL impression, but it is a little bit. He does have to kind of get the voice right and the look right. Yeah. And there was an incredible guy who I had never seen before, but I pushed really hard for him. He ended up getting the job.

I love that. But it does make it harder when it's based on, there's a lot more factors if it's based on someone real who you can go watch. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that's weird when you tell a story about real life is that when we released the trailer a few weeks ago, I got a text from, so there's one of the main woman, the woman whose face is on the cover of the book, Dollar's Price. She's dead now. We released the trailer, and I got a text from one of her friends like an hour after it came out saying, she never smoked. Like, you have her smoking. You know, it's these little things, right? You're like, first of all, this is TV. Second of all, Dolores is no longer with us, so I don't know what we're doing here. A little dramatic license. The single human being who did not smoke there. Who didn't smoke at the time. Right. That's really funny, though, to get that kind of feedback. But the casting is really special for it, and I like that it's all pretty much. relatively unknown folks but yeah they really uh you know it's it's nice to see you know a period piece where everyone is really looking the way they're supposed to be looking in accordance to the time and the place and the setting and the story yeah versus i mean i'm not talking about the inclusivity kind of dei side of things but just like in the way that it immerses you into it like when you're watching a netflix kind of storybook rom-com thing about the medieval times and there's an asian guy and a black guy and a white woman and a fat person in a wheelchair and you're like okay this is i'm not engulfed in this transformation but i was really engulfed watching the show and the two lead girls spot on perfect casting amazing right so you actually you actually watch you watch some of it i i'm so i have a hulu account you can let's be be be be very honest here jason so how much did you watch i've watched two episodes I'm remembering, you guys once did an interview, I think it was with Wasu, where he was there to talk about his book, and I think you'd read the back of the book? And you asked him about the back of the book, which I totally respect it, because I thought, you know what? I still haven't read it. There you go, you get the back of it right there. You pull it down off the shelf. You know, I occasionally pick it up and reread the back of it. This guy won a Pulitzer, right? He actually did win a Pulitzer. He's the real deal. You may have us confused.

Anyway, so I'm all for Odyssey and these things. So you actually watched two episodes? All right, good. I watched almost all of it. When I was given the screeners, it was only the first two, but now I'll binge the rest. I just love using the great interface on the Hulu screening room, the viewing, the digital viewing room. Do you find it difficult? Because there are people that I sent it to who are like, I can't. This is like getting into Fort Knox. We'd used it before. What's difficult? You type in your username and password and it says, you are allowed to watch all of these shows. And then you click play. All that shit is annoying. This is my complaint. It's worse with music because that's something I actually care about. But every new record that comes. is like on some there's like five different services where you can stream the album before it comes out so you can't put it on your you can't listen to it on your phone you can't listen it's all it's all just piracy stuff that they're concerned about yeah yeah yeah but it's like back in the day they would just send you a fucking cd and at least you could play it on your own time obviously there was there's a put it on your ipod and listen to it on a bike ride but now you have to sit there at your laptop and be like this song is good i don't understand why no one can just get that stuff There can be one. I want there to be an Amazon of that, and that's just what it is. That's the one. That's how it works. I'm more than happy to create an independent login account in order to watch film and television that is not out yet and where I'm able to show the rest of the world that I have access to media before they do. It's a small price to pay for... this feeling of supremacy but the yeah exactly the feeling of superiority but but is but are you and are you cool doing creating 25 of those accounts for all the different services i mean not that that's the thing that seems weird to me is that you don't have something like um like certainly when we were making the show there's this you know there's picks which is the it's where you get all the you want universal basic streaming yeah basically it's called cable and you can just it's really it's we want to we want to rundle

It's super easy to use. It's coming back. It's coming back. You pay a subscription. And so magazines, right? It's like a newsletter with several contributors. Just think about it. It's crazy. It's really crazy. All unpaid. Yeah. The other thing that I liked about when I was watching it, it was really, I like shows, stories, TV shows, books, whatever, where it captures the last time of a thing. You know what I mean? And that's a vague statement, but like, you know, whatever. late 70s kind of era it's the last time you could do just kind of like common street crimes before cctv and you know technology was able to catch up so it was like this is really the last time where you could just like shoot at a cop and then get away by running down an alleyway and then like hiding behind a dumpster like this is the last time in the history of the world It's pouring rain, and I just went down a dark hallway. If you do that now, the guy in a helicopter has a red dot on your forehead, and you're done in 10 seconds. But this is just like, oh, we got away again after killing a cop. This is so cool. The golden era of impunity. Yeah, exactly. It's funny. I was just reading, because I'm working on this new book right now, which is about some criminal stuff in London. And I was reading about how the... There was the golden age of the bank robbery in London, really kind of in the 60s and 70s, and then a little bit into the 80s. But then what happens is you get two things. You get banking goes online, and so you don't have bank branches anymore. And CCTV is the other thing. But basically that if you were a criminal in London in the 1960s and 70s, that meant you robbed banks. And there were bank robberies virtually every day. So cool. strange technological changes happen. And basically like nobody robs banks anymore. Bank robbing is just so cool. It's just exactly what you want. It's just, you go in and you get the money. You don't have to get something, then sell it to get the money. It's the direct, it's so direct. I would love to rob a bank personally. I would love to rob a bank. Don't rule it out. You know, don't, don't put it past yourself. Chris, is that why you're so against the cashless society? I am very, no, I'm against the cashless society because.

that is unfair to many people walking the earth because there's some people who are not paid. They can't have a bank. It's just, it's, it's crazy. Like when I've, when that's happened to me before, when, when I've been at like sweet green or somewhere, they're like, Oh, we don't, sorry. And I'm just like, they'll just give it to me because they don't know what to do. They're like, sure. This is sorry. We don't take cash or sorry. We don't take cards. No, we don't take cash. We don't take cash. We don't know how. We don't know what to do. Just take the salad. I can't begin to think of what I would have to do if I had to make change from a $20 bill. I was in Barcelona for nine weeks this summer, and I never changed money. Yeah. Because that city is just absolutely kind of wired up and there's nothing that you can't do with your phone. But it's not about that. I agree. No. So you don't have cash on? You don't keep a couple of hundo in the wallet? As I mentioned, I have two sons and they're 12 and 14. So the hundo goes into the wallet and then it disappears. It is gone from the wallet. They're going to get pizza with their friends or whatever. Any money, any cash that I am holding, I am holding temporarily until they steal it from me. Okay, that's true. I did steal some money in my day. I understand that. But I just, I don't know. I think it's because I used to buy drugs so much and that required cash. So I got in the habit of always having whatever, $500 or $1,000 on me. Really? Yeah, and I just feel like it's like what a man should do. I don't mean to gender that. What yesterday's man should do. So you're no longer buying drugs, but you're still walking around with $1,000 on you? Occasionally $1,000, usually $500. But when do you ever need it? I use it in bodegas. Bodegas all take cards, though. Yeah, but that's not how it was intended. A bodega is a cash business. Those guys don't want to pay taxes. I don't want them to pay taxes. I love that you're out here honoring the intention of the bodega. Well, I just think if I were to open – It would somehow not be in the spirit of the thing for me to pay them with my MasterCard. Especially if I'm buying my cigarettes that are driven in from Ohio, that's definitely a cash transaction. Exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. I just like cash, and I always have, and it's cool.

To me, credit cards are, it doesn't feel like you're doing anything. You know what I mean? It just feels, it feels that the transaction doesn't have enough weight to it. I'm sort of missing the romance. I just love just doing it all on my phone. Okay. All right. Well, what do you, what's your, since you're a dad, what's your change collection looking like? You know what I'm saying? You got a big stash of change in the house somewhere? Somewhere there's a jar, but like I just don't even, because I never deal with change anymore because I don't deal with cash, right? So it's just not, this is another way in which my life is simplified. Yeah. And we would go to the grocery store and, you know, my kids used to love actually going to the grocery store and doing the, you know, when you collect the, like a coin star sock full of, yeah, exactly. The amount of little Caesars that I purchased with stolen change. been taken to coin star that's why i was fat from like age 8 to 15 you know it's literally the coin star to little caesar's pipeline was an epidemic every dollar yeah yeah every voucher that came out of that coin star machine went straight yeah but whenever you use once you hit a certain age using that coin star machine you're kind of looking over your shoulder hoping nobody sees you because it's it's sort of broke boy activities right It's really funny. I did it once in New York, in Union Square, because I was moving, and I had so much change. Jason, I had a hood on and a hat. I looked like DiCaprio at his 50th birthday party. I had the hat on, the hood on, the glasses on. They can't see me getting 300 and quarters over here. It would be bad for my look. It's out of a movie. Hey, Chris, what are you doing over here? And all you hear is... those machines are so fucking loud too yeah those are it's they still exist like if you go to any publics in georgia there's there's a coin star in every location it's there it's pumping um all right well let's let's uh let's move away from uh loose change patrick i wanted to talk um on a serious question about what you what you do i was reading an article about this this writer who's written a lot of books that have been turned into film screenplays and he's talking about how he really only

wants to write things that he considers to be cinematic and he doesn't necessarily care, uh, as much about the journalistic integrity of, of keeping the original storyline. If it means he can dramatize something and make it juicier and better, you know, like making somebody smoke a cigarette when they didn't smoke before or whatever. I wanted to know, like kind of your thoughts or where your line is on journalistic integrity. Are we post journalistic integrity because it's so hard to just make money writing in general? What do you think? We are posts. Jason and I are. But he's asking you specifically. Where I draw the line, Jason, is between you guys and me. Okay. So I know the article you're referring to. Yeah. And I'm going to try and... Can we name the writer? Because I don't know the article, so let's just get it out there. I forgot his name, but he wrote... Oh, I know Patrick didn't forget it, and he's just holding his goddamn tongue, little narc. Come on, give it up, Patrick. It's the guy who wrote... I'm actually blanking on his name. The Social Network. He wrote The Social Network. The guy who wrote the book that became The Social Network. Oh, I thought you were going to say Hillbilly Elegy, which I... That book is... Yeah, that's... Okay. I got Jermaine Dupree Vance. Yeah, Jermaine Dupree, Vance. Money ain't a thing. All right, sorry. But he's basically saying the way that he writes books, he doesn't give a fuck about if it's ever going to be turned into a book. I guess when he was making The Social Network, they were writing the movie in tandem with the book. The book was one month ahead of the screenplay, and he'll write 20 pages and send it out. And if they can't sell it off of, like, the first chapter, then he just scraps it and moves on to the next story that he dramatizes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, like, where to begin? Yeah. So first of all, he makes shit up. Like, by his own admission, he invents stuff. Like, there's scenes that he invents, dialogue, things that didn't happen. So those books are this kind of weird, nebulous thing where they're like,

They're true stories-ish, but they're not really novels. But they're also not really, at least for me, that's not journalism. And on some level, if you're a Hollywood development executive, you kind of don't care because you're like, well, we're going to make stuff up anyway in the movie. If you're making The Social Network, which is an incredible movie, you kind of don't care whether Facebook has really started because Mark Zuckerberg couldn't get into a dining club. harvard right so i guess the first thing to say would be like i don't make shit up i don't i can't for me it's all it's all non-fiction and thank you for thank you for clearing that up patrick right and keep i don't make shit up just put it on the cover of variety chris exactly like i'm keeping it a thousand with these motherfuckers i don't make shit up i don't like these other writers i ain't like just ahead A headline machine, this podcast. Are the screenplay adaptations of your nonfiction books ever filled with any fabrications? Yeah, absolutely. But to me, it's a different thing, right? Absolutely. For years, I worked as a screenwriter part-time. Nothing that ever got made, but I had a bunch of studio jobs writing scripts, and I actually adapted other people's stuff. And so I like I recognize that when you're telling a fictional or a fictionalized or kind of based on a true story, but not actually a true story movie or TV show, you're taking all kinds of license. Journalism is just different for me. And that's true of the articles, true of the books. I feel like the integrity of that stuff is important. And most with my books, if you go to the end of my books, there's like 100 pages of end notes, which almost nobody reads. Like 98 percent of the people who read the book are never going to look at those end notes. That's just for you. That's just for you to remind yourself. But also occasionally there'll be something that you read that seems improbable. You're like, there's no way he could know that. And for that moment, I want you to be able to look. There's a journalist I know who referred to this as an open kitchen, and that's kind of the way I think of it. I want there to be a lot of transparency about what I'm doing. Show your work. Yeah, show the work. But after the thing is done and it comes out in the world, can it become something else?

Sure, a bunch of stuff has been optioned. The thing that's cool is with Say Nothing, probably more people will see the show than read the book. A lot of people have read the book, but you just reach a bigger audience. I hate to tell you guys, but it seems as though not everybody actually reads books, it turns out. Yeah, I think people are into TV and movies a lot. right now they're loving it are they i see i even wonder because my my kids certainly are just like if it's not a if it's not a two minute video i think it's brilliant yeah i mean there is like the the next generation your your kids generation you know the tv may as well be an encyclopedia britannica on the bookshop they're more interested in something on your on their phone that's two minutes long that's for sure but i i think with all that stuff It works as long as it's really good. So if you take some liberties, fudge some details, dramatize a little bit, if it's really that good, then I feel like mostly people are going to be okay with it. Like the music of Michael Jackson. I think so. And his circumstances. We can overlook certain things. I'm holding Mike's corpse to the fire. I'm not put up with this shit. If the quality is there. I still can't listen to Ryan Adams, and I'm pissed off about it. So until he's forgiven, Michael Jackson's not forgiven on how long gone. That's my rule. Listen, I think the thing that's interesting for me, again, as a parent of kids is seeing – I do think there's a weird thing that's happened with kids who grew up with phones where it's like, honestly, even like a 45-minute episode of a podcast. Like anything that's very long, they find – So my older boy has gotten into – he loves horror movies. And we've started – I've been showing him all the classic horror movies, which is great because my wife won't watch them with me. And we watched Rosemary's Baby, which is a great movie. But you see that movie with a 14-year-old, and, you know, much of the movie is their, like, apartment housing. Their apartments are, like, hunting on the Upper West Side and kind of looking around, and, you know, she's –

she's pregnant and like eating steak and it just, it's this very kind of domestic thing. And it's all a little eerie and creepy, but he, like he turned to me after half an hour and he was like, isn't this movie supposed to be about a lady who gives birth to the devil? You're like, we're getting there. I had to explain to him, like, you know, sit tight. You know, it's like a two hour windup, which makes it all the cooler when it happens. And he has no concept of that. I mean, this concerns me because I can't sit through anything. I have a really hard time. Do you think it has anything to do with looking at Twitter 11 hours a day, Chris? Yeah, I can't really watch a movie unless I go to the theater. When I'm looking at my television to pick something to watch, there's no part of me. I can't click on a movie. I might want to see it, and I just cannot commit. I cannot do it. Are you actually still looking at Twitter? Of course, yeah. Fuck Blue Sky. That's our statement here. We fuck Blue Sky. None of that thread stuff. We're Twitter.com on the site. That's right. You and who? Us. Me and all people that like to laugh. And other people that hate themselves. Republicans, girls, and gays. Other people that stormed the Capitol and us. X. It's for laughs. Yeah. For the laughs. But this is the argument we make on this show all the time. It really is. Like, my 4U page is fucking hilarious. I can look at it all day long and laugh. It's so good. Yeah. As long as you have a good algorithm. We've talked about it before. No, I think that's maybe that's the... Yeah, bro, you wrote a book about the Sacklers. Your shit's fucked up, man. The problem is me. Yeah, of course it's you. It's never Elon. It's always you. The algorithm doesn't lie. We've talked about it before. Kara Swisher, another podcaster, she talked about how she's, I'm going off of X. I hate it. The only thing on my feed is just pornography and beheading videos and things like that. So I'm getting off of it.

Chris and I don't get any of that at all. We just get funny jokes making fun of Addison Rae videos. This is really a story about Kara Swisher telling on herself. Exactly. Kara Swisher jerks off with the bells around her neck. It's all pornography and beheadings. Where's this coming from? Are you guys seeing this too? Aren't you a tech reporter, Kara? Don't you know how this works? It's funny. I have this conversation. Our mutual friend, Izzy Wood and I. talk about this from time to time it's kind of a running joke but the hi is it i just so i spend much more time on instagram these days and instagram but it's a similar thing with the algorithm and and for sure and so the and the craziest thing is it's so sophisticated now that it can tell like if your finger if you linger on something so you're scrolling through it's serving stuff up to you and if you linger for like a millisecond it knows we got it and so so here i'll tell on myself so um So I grew up in Boston in this neighborhood called Dorchester. Dorchester is famous for various things and infamous for others, but one of them is that it produced The New Kids on the Block and the Wahlberg family. So I've always taken a great interest in the career of Mark Wahlberg. And I do not follow Mark Wahlberg on Instagram, but his Instagram persona is such a fucking bizarre, weird. There's so much going on because it's like it's it's it's roughly divided into thirds. It's like one third. I'm jacked. I'm working out. Like, let me show you my abs. Municipal municipal content. It's one municipal. Yeah. The fit pics with municipal where he's like showing you all his like like all the all the different. And then it's one third this kind of ridiculously over the top, like like, oh, I'm sorry. I was just praying like, you know. You know, like, like stay prayed up people, you know, like this, you know, like they prayed up as a classic Wahlberg blowing kisses to God. And the and I think and I like I find all this kind of repellent on some level. And I'm also deeply fascinated by it. And I've never like actively clicked on anything.

fucking Instagram knows. It knows that I'm here for it. So basically, you open my Instagram and it's just wall-to-wall Mark Wahlberg. He's edging out all the people that I actually follow. That sounds like a nightmare to me. I hate him. I kind of do, too. I like his hustle, but I don't really like his work. You know what I mean? One of the most insufferable guys of all time. Famously tried to murder a guy for being Vietnamese and got away with it. Blinded a guy. He blinded a guy. Yes, this is back in his Dorchester days. That's worse than Chad Jackson Parker's husband, Matthew Broderick, killing the guy with a car and getting away with it. That's two of my favorite stories. Or Caitlyn Jenner. What did Caitlyn Jenner do? Oh, Caitlyn Jenner killed someone, vehicular manslaughter. She was like texting and driving on PCH and killed a guy and kind of got it sorted out. I think it might have been like a pedestrian. Yeah, it was a pedestrian. Killed a person. I don't know their gender. Their fucking gender. But yeah, but I hate Mark Wahlberg. Exactly. I hate Mark Wahlberg a lot. Vin Diesel, I hate, but not for any reason. He just annoys me. I don't want people to be that famous who are that stupid. Yeah, I guess I sort of feel roughly the same about the two of them, but there's something kind of malignant and fascinating to me about Mark Wahlberg. Mark's dedication to his body at his big age is something that I can respect. but anything else about him i cannot yeah and i do getting up at 2 30 does seem like something that an insane person does does right i i always i always sort of sympathize with the people on staff who have to be up with him taking the videos you know he's also very very very rich like in in a way that like it's kind of inexplicably right like where did that did he just invest it wisely like his head bro ted ted too really no i mean i think he probably i think he he's been in big stuff And I think he did. Yeah, he probably did invest properly. I mean, who knows if municipal is paying dividends yet, but I'm sure he's made some. Does anyone other than Mark Wahlberg wear municipal clothes? I don't know that I've ever had a sighting in the wild. I know a couple of people that will buy it as a joke for like Halloween costumes, but I've never seen somebody.

you know, earnestly wear it because they enjoy it. There's a store on Melrose, like Jason, like past Melrose, like a little bit past Melrose place, like near the Pacific. Soldier Boy has a store on Melrose. Chief Keef has a store on Melrose, you know? Yeah, it doesn't take, it's, it's a nice store. That's the fucked up part. But yes, it's a, it's a, it's a strange, it's a strange thing. I was going to say my, my, my namesake, Chief Keef. Yeah, I got that. Yeah, I got it. That's cool. I know you're a big fan. Yeah, you know, what are you going to do? Have you guys met? We never have. I'm trying to make it happen, but it's like the Dua Lipa thing. I keep waiting by the phone. Yeah, he'll call you. He'll have you come out to Tarzana and put on a helmet and ride one of his four-wheelers. Chief's a little tougher to track down. He doesn't read, that's for sure. So, Patrick, what's next for you? What's in the hopper? I've got this book that I'm working on about London, so I've been going back and forth to London quite a bit. What about London, if you don't mind me asking? This is a New Yorker story. Yeah, it was a New Yorker story I wrote in February about a 19-year-old kid in London who went off the balcony of a luxury building into the Thames. And he was just like a middle-class kid from West London, from Meadowvale. And after he died, his parents found out that he had been pretending that he was the son of a Russian oligarch. it's kind of about the mystery of his death and his life and his parents trying to figure out what was going on with him. But then on a deeper level, it's about what is it, you know, what is it about London today that would make it the kind of place where you would, if you were a 19 year old kid, you would aspire to be a Russian oligarch that that would be. So I imagine there's several chapters dedicated to the worship of supercars then and kind of how that. The supercar thing is really big there, yeah. License plates come into play in that story, I'm assuming. Wait, so what's the license plate thing? Like those license plates over there, you want to get the lowest digit number possible. And that shows your highest status in town. So they'll have auctions. This is useful for me to know. I mean, it's big in like UAE. I was going to say they all go to the Emiratis. Yeah. In Little Doha. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Little Doha. That's Little Doha to you. Little Doha. I've got like a license plate where it's like a two digit number. Like I got 14.

And, like, that will go to, like, a Sotheby's auction for millions of dollars more than the car it's on. I'm so glad that we've had this conversation because this is going right in the book. Hopefully I make it into the end notes this time. This is the hard-hitting research here. Yeah, I'm going to deliberately put it late in the book. You know what I might do is I may just put it on the back of the book, Jason. Put it on the back. Jason will see it. Put it right on the back. Jason's definitely going to see it. Captivating fucking license plate. Jason Stewart, how long ago? Patrick, thank you for joining us. That was a pleasure. Say Nothing is streaming everywhere now on Hulu. Yeah, it's chilly in L.A. Great time to do some binging. There you go. It's a wonderful tale. You don't need to look at your phone while you're watching it, even though it's a period piece. There's violence. Cute people. Yeah, maybe, Chris, get in the habit of pausing when you look at your phone. Maybe that'll help things out a little bit. Show some respect. No, but Hulu actually has ad breaks. So, you know, we built those in just for you. Appreciate you. Always good to see you. Thanks, guys. Good to talk. We'll see you soon. Have fun at tennis tonight. Check right now. Do all I want, guess I can. And if I don't, because I wanna. Be ignored by the stiff and the bored, because I'm gonna. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com.