394. - Hua Hsu

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Okay, how long gone? Country Chris checking in. DJ them jeans on the ones and twos. How the fuck is it going, bro? Oh, it's good. I was just involved in some sneaky activity. I'm in the middle of a juice cleanse today with Bae, and I don't know if she likes the fact that I'm considered drinking coffee during the cleanse. Yeah, now I know you're doing your one-day sugar cleanse. How do you feel so far? I mean, we've talked about this a little bit off mic, but it seems like one day is what's it going to do for you? Like, what are the promised results? I kind of want to do it one day per week. Just to sort of reset the digestive system. Okay, okay. And then have one day a week where I'm eating like 700 calories and 11 billion grams of sugar in one day versus a standard, you know, 2,700 calorie, zero sugar, you know, whatever. So, yeah, I mean, it's mainly just to kind of reset the digestive system. You know, I'm always eating good, so I like to shut it down, you know, give the crew a day off. Sure, yeah, you like to be – you're a good boss is what you're saying. I have a little fun with it too. You know, 80-20, 80-20, and a lot of people will do an 80-20 diet where 80% –

Healthy shit, 20%, food you love. Trying to structure the same plan, but just maybe over a week versus on a day-to-day basis. It sounds like DJ Them Jeans is searching for something dietary lately, and he hasn't really been able to put one of his big phalanges on it. It's true. Well, I think the problem is once you get a little bit older and every year you age, it gets harder and harder to keep it trim and tight. You get less and less. able to do strenuous activities and your cardio goes down. The hangover is hurting. Let's speak for yourself on that. My cardio is actually going up. Actually, I did want to talk quickly about a funny experience I had at Barry's Boot Camp today, just quickly. Country Barry's. There's an instructor here who I believe played college football. The guy is shredded. His name is Kenny. And he plays, he's the one who plays like Beamer Benz or Bentley. You know, he plays good music. And today he was playing the future song where he's like, I don't need shooters. I'll kill them myself. Oh, okay. Which was amazing. So he's playing that. Wait, what's his name again? So his name is Kenny. But then, so he's playing this future song about killing people. I'm obviously peaking. And then there's a guy, there's a guy in the class who I've seen around over the, over the years. And he's like, damn. Said, Johnny Diamond back in the house, I saw you tricking off taking your new chick to Greece on the mic. And I was like, look at her out. They were clearly friendly, but he was literally clowning this guy for taking his new girlfriend on vacation in the middle of the class. And I was like, damn, this is why Barry's Boot Camp is the best workout in the world. Where are you going to get that? Where else are you going to get that? You guys really have a tight-knit, cult-like... Only berries, I've noticed that. And I think the only criteria is you can't be fat and you're welcome into this cult. Is that right? Yeah, there's no race, gender, none of that stuff matters. Only BMI, which is kind of a utopian society in some ways. I see a lot of berries folk around. The people that do berries type classes at Equinox, and they're all like 62-year-old.

women who have the body of a 13 year old yeah it's just odd that's what i'm going for but yeah it was it was just so funny because i was like i'm the only one laughing at this because i don't think people realize how funny it is that he's like he's basically saying where you been dog i haven't seen you in a couple weeks oh yeah that's right i follow you on instagram i saw you tricking off in greece It's just too good. It is good. Just nagging this guy while he's doing sit-ups. It was really funny. You know, let's work that into our screenplay. Of course. I'm also suffering a little bit because, you know, I think that the Southern Democrats have discovered yard signs. So only Republicans have been rocking with the yard signs. Bro, what feels more Republican than a yard sign? Like, who cares more about the yard than a Republican? True. You know what I mean? It could be a political thing. It could be simply a no-poo-poo sign from the doggy. You know, whatever it is, Republicans are going to get to snitching on a yard sign. So there's a popular sign I've seen around the Atlanta area of Stacey Abrams. But she's... She's standing in front of a Shepard Fairey-style gay rainbow circle like she's a member of the MCU. Okay. It's like they're trying to make her into a superhero, but it's obviously she's defending gay in this yard sign, and I just think it's a little too superhero-y. to really feel political okay well you you said stacy adams they do in politics now no stacy abrams no god she doesn't she might wear square toes but she don't make any square toes that's that's two different she might she might pull up in the now and laters okay so i think uh this is this is obviously the marvel universification of our you know every every adult who's old enough to vote still likes watching Spider-Man in their jammies. So this is the only type of marketing that will appeal. To get elected, you have to basically...

pander to adults who like children's entertainment is where I'm going with this. Exactly. The majority vote. This sign is very popular. I'm sure it's not cheap. I'm sure you have to donate. They ain't just giving you this shit for free. You know what I mean? I like that you have to buy advertising for somebody. Well, that's the beauty of politics. They find a way to get your money out of your damn pockets, your hard-earned money, of course, every way you can. But yeah, so I've just been noticing. I've been just doing a little trend reporting down here. uh in the atl it's all a write-off baby it's all a write-off this is this is part of the job j crew's gonna pay for this whole trip but there's some there's also some some stuff that's happening in la and new york that i wanted to talk about um that i feel i'm a little upset that um my favorite influencer dj them jeans was passed up for this new kind of low-key UGG campaign. I don't know if you've seen the hotties on your TL. I've been seeing the UGG is having a push right now, aren't they, as we're approaching winter season. It's going to dip down below 86 degrees this evening. Exactly. Jason, as you get your two pumps of pumpkin spice and that latte proof, the girlies are putting on their new UGG platforms. You know, I sent the group chat a picture of Bella and Mark out to get some pizza, and it looked like, oh, just a candid photo of this cool couple. That was a candid photo, Chris. Come on. Not a candid photo, Jason. It was a Ugg spawn con. And then a friend of the show, Kiernan Shipka, today posing on a couch at the Bowery Hotel on her Uggs. She did hashtag like a pro. But I'm saying that the Uggs have – it's just they don't go away, but they still somehow, Jason, are able to innovate on that ugly ass. shoe and it's amazing and i also i i have to assume jason the check is pretty big if they're getting celebs of this stature the ug is a timeless shoe of course um i actually learned recently from listening to planet money podcast i think the ug boot literally in our our australian homies will know that's just what you call any type of like shearling yeah fur line boot is called an ug boot uh you know somebody who had the smarts to

trademark that name and build a brand around it i think that like you said there's there's always they're always innovating but when have you seen a non-standard ugg boot you know it's like a converse or a vans or whatever like when it when have you ever seen the air force one or a pair of converse where you're like oh these are some fucked up weird ones and i actually like it yeah no you know i've never seen like there's those uggs the the the thigh high ugg boots What brand were those? It might have been a Telfar collab. Were they Y3? I'm saying all the non-traditional Uggs through the history of time have all been ugly as fuck, but not in the right way. No, you're right. I'm happy to see them making a push as the leaves change colors and the fires continue to burn. I'm glad to see that they're still doing their little thang thang. Have you ever worn Uggs? No, I haven't. I have been in touch with their PR before. They have offered to send me some Uggs, and I did politely decline because I didn't think there was anything. But people rave, a lot of men rave about the Tom Brady-endorsed leather house slipper being an amazing house slipper. They have an Ugg driving shoe as well that I've sort of had my eye on for the last... Okay, well, let me know. I'm happy to tap in for you and see if they got them in a 17. Oh, they do. Trust me. I've checked them out on my websites. Okay, you checked them out on Zappos. I also, just quickly, before we talk about our guests, I went... I had a good experience at a restaurant last night, and I just wanted to share that with you. Okay. Let's see if I can shit on it. Let's go. No, no. Just my friend Isaac, who relocated. He's from here, but he came back here from New York, and him and his wife have this great house. He's like, yeah, let's go to this place. It's called Amano. And I'm like, all right, yeah. I've never heard of it. It didn't seem like a trendy spot. I drive over there. It's fucking popping. Amano. We ordered. We ordered a couple appetizers. We ordered a cacio e pepe. We ordered a piece of fish, some sides, some desserts. He had a couple of drinks and it was just excellent service. The food was a solid eight. There was nothing annoying. There was nothing annoying about it. And the check was like 130 bucks because we're in Georgia.

And it was just – I was like, damn, people can actually do this right. You know what I mean? It was fascinating to experience. I think it can be done right, like you said. It just can't really be done right in – a major metropolitan city like la or new york it's just right it was like a it was like a neighborhood restaurant you know it's like a neighborhood restaurant vibe but it actually really worked and the food is is because they had i bet there were 15 things total in the menu right right right it wasn't you know what i mean it was like we do we do this shit like i'll tell you the five that are really good you can just order from there okay shout out to young amano Small business that we should support. Yeah, that's right. When we touch down in Atlanta, maybe you could take me there one night. I'm going to take you. He told me about some crazy taco place that's really popping off that's apparently amazing because Atlanta oddly has very good Mexican food. I don't go to Georgia to eat taco, sweetheart, but that's nice of you to offer. Well, you're not going to San Diego either, but more importantly, Nobu has opened their doors here. So you already know what the fuck is going on. Restaurant, hotel, or both? I believe it's both, but I will be tossing the keys to the Ram, telling them to keep it up front, spending $100 on valet, and then quickly going inside to spend $500 on a meal that will definitely leave me hungry. But it'll feel good. Okay, sorry, we do have a guest today. Don't worry. We'll be able to talk to our guest about all of this and more. I'm sure he has a lot of opinions about Miso, Black Cod, and valet parking prices. That's right. Wei Su is a writer. He's a staff writer at the New Yorker. His new book, his memoir, Stay True, is out now, and it's quite good, receiving rave reviews all over the World Wide Web. There's a great profile of him in Vulture. another podcast you know where these guys talk to rappers and they get drunk i'm not going to call it by name obviously we're not doing promo um but he also wrote a great a great story about uh about kurt cobain and his dad that you might have seen getting passed around um but more importantly he was straight edge so let's get into it uh and uh and see and see which which victory records release is his favorite can't wait

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Are you older than us by just a wee bit? Yeah, just a wee bit. You don't have to divulge. Five years, three years. I was hoping you weren't going to say your age, but just say you're intellectually and financially more advanced than us. But you took the high road, so I appreciate that. Thanks for having me. I caught the last bit of the intro. I didn't realize they were live.

incredibly excited to talk about this stuff yeah we don't have time to not do it live you know what i mean we keep it live we keep it live it's kind of our breakneck cadence this is the only option we don't have a choice really where are you coming are you coming to us live from new york i am all right which outer borough do you reside in because you can't work the new yorker and live in manhattan that's against the rules no no i live in the uh the sort of Ground zero of the media elite, Park Slope. Oh, okay. And I want to be clear for all the listeners. He's not white. I want to be very clear. Okay. I want to be very clear. Appreciate that clarification. No problem. I mean, I'm sure they've Googled you. What brand is the stroller? For a while, it was the same one that Kim and Kanye had. Let's go. But I had it first. I had it first. I expect nothing less. He saw Kim Stroller and he said, I hit first. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. A little Ray J joke for you. How many kids do you have? One. Okay. And how old is he or she? Or they? Nice. Seven. He is seven. Something funny about that? Something funny about that? He is seven. Okay. He is seven. So what is he into so far? How much of your... kind of your interest uh have you forced upon you this young none okay no uh i could not be less cool in his eyes which is totally fine he's into uh roblox and something called dragon masters roblox that shit sounds trash i've heard i've i've heard their first record i don't really like the new shit but what is the deal what is the deal the second one i'm not familiar with if you could break it down for us so dragon masters dragon masters yeah what is this a this is a game i mean i don't i don't know this is a game no no it's like some it's some story that takes place in books but I've cultivated this ability to read things aloud and not actually hear them. Wow, damn, that's real dad hours. That's amazing. That's like when you were reading your bio just five seconds ago. It's like circular breathing.

I could, like, read shit but not actually understand what I'm reading. That's a great skill. It's about a bunch of dragons and stones, which allow people to control them, I guess. Well, don't give it all away, Ed, okay? I'm just trying to get sponsored. I understand. That's the only reason this podcast exists is for Jason to get more Instagram deals. So I'm merely the supporting cast here. Yeah. All right, so you're in Park Slope. It's a rainy day in New York. I'm hearing reports it's a rainy day in New York. You're having a nice, warm – are you having a cup of tea here? i am yeah so interesting so you're not a coffee guy uh no i just uh drank a bunch with chris guy molly gq he says hello oh yes yes we love we one of our inside men at gq who's a big uh classic emo guy, we like to keep those guys kind of at the top. You know what I mean? Of the masthead. Because if I can't talk to you about Sunday Day Real Estate, I don't know if our relationship is going to kind of last. Yeah, Chris, let's send him a hat just to be safe. Just to keep him in our good grades. So you went and you did some off-site coffee drinking beforehand. So you're juiced up? Yeah, more or less. Okay, do you want to shout out one of your local fourth wave purveyors over there on Park Slope? Are you going to... You don't want to blow up your spots. No, I mean, I usually just drink at home. So it was just because we needed to talk business. So we went to Three's Brewing just down the street. I've been drinking at home lately too, if I can be honest. I did. I had a local coffee purveyor here in Atlanta, and I'm going to not name it, but those who know will know. And they don't have – the only alternative milk they have is macadamia. which is a nice treat if I'm feeling crazy. Wait, can you tell the difference? Is that a discernible difference right there? No, I think it's just more expensive is really all it is. It's the opposite of a food desert over there, a milk desert, I should say. Sometimes the cold brew, it's too much liquid for me, so I want a Cortado. I've been influenced by Jason because it's obviously smaller. And this fourth wave coffee shop that sells slices of $15 avocado toast and macadamia nut milk, I heard what I could only assume is the owner making fun of his employees for buying expensive salads at the chops down the street. And it took everything in my power not to be like, bitch, you're part of the problem.

You're literally selling $8 lattes with lavender in them. You're not even calling it an avocado crostini or anything to try to make it seem more valuable. Because these coffee places are getting so out of control. Chris, why don't you call him out? Call this place out. I'm not going to call it out. Yeah, I'm actually kind of curious now. Yeah, I just got a listener just called in. He said he'd like to know as well, Chris, if you wouldn't mind. No, it's because I go there every day, and it's one of those classic situations where the product is very good, but I still have to complain about the trappings because I'm a monster. And that's just kind of where I land on stuff like that. But I'm glad that – my point is I want you guys – you like adult mature adults to influence me to one day learn to make coffee at home good fucking love he just melts a pod right yeah i just yeah you chris honestly you should get that um what you might call it what's it called commenteer that that really is the easiest way to make i know iced coffee but i think their subscription model is fucked up so i didn't really fuck with it at all wait wait so when you when you do that do you make it hot and then ice it or you just let the pod question naturally like to let nature take its course So there's two options. Great. That was my first question. Let God take over. If you want to do a hot coffee, you just pull a pot out of the freezer, pour a kettle full of hot water in. It melts instantly. You stir it in two seconds. You're drinking coffee. If you want to do an iced, pull one out of the fridge or out of the freezer and then move it onto the countertop for 10 minutes to thaw out. Put it in the fridge while you go change a diaper. Go walk the dog. Go watch a little Dragon Masters. A little Dragon Masters. Exactly. A little Dragon Masters. Light work. Next thing you know. Light work. Yeah. But in the time that it takes to make milk out of your macadamias, you'll be ready to go. Well, obviously, I fresh grind each single serving. So it does suck a lot of time in my afternoons. But luckily, my blender is strong. Wait. You seriously? No, no, no. I don't do anything. Okay.

We have a Jirah. Have you ever used one of these? That sounds like a hot French guy. Tell me more. Jirah? I don't know. It might be Italian. I'm not sure. It's Continental. Okay. Remember when Continental used to sound impressive? And then you grew up and you just learned that means fruit? It took a second, but I got that one. But it actually is the most convenient way to make coffee. The machine is... It's just like the size of an old printer. It's like huge, but it's actually, it makes great coffee and it's very easy to use. Okay. I would recommend this to all of your listeners, a Jura, J-U-R-A. What's the price point on this? Because not all of us have a brownstone, so where are we at with this? Jura. I don't actually know. It just, like, my wife got it. Okay, I'm looking at it right now. There's two models. They're available at William Sonoma and Crate and Barrel. The one at Crate and Barrel is going to run you a stack. The one at William Sonoma, nine grand. But that's an espresso machine. That's an espresso machine. The black coffee espresso machine. is $1,000. Oh, okay. That's inflation, though. I got it pre-Biden, so it was not that much. The Jura, there's many models. I'm sorry. You're saying in Trump's America, espresso machines were cheaper, which does sound like liberal propaganda, confusingly, but yeah, that's good to know. I'm on the Jura website. It looks like they have those, you know when you go to the Delta Lounge or the MX Lounge and there's the espresso machine that can make... 50 different drinks and you just hit a button on a little touch screen, this is the brand that does that. They got the Blank Street Coffee contract. I got to step my money up. You'll end up saving money in the long run. That's what I'm about. You've been giraffe-pilled is what it sounds like. If you drink coffee, if you love your family, you can't afford not to get this unit. It sounds like you came on this podcast to get some free stuff and I appreciate that because that's the only reason I do it as well. You're originally from California, right? Yeah.

Bay Area, Silicon Valley. I wanted you to say the yay area yourself. I didn't want to force that on you. I would argue that you were living in the Bay Area, if you're a few years older than us, in probably the sweetest time you could ever live in San Francisco, other than, of course, hate Ashbury in the 60s kind of vibe. It's possible, but I was nowhere near there. But I grew up in the suburbs of Cupertino. It was arguably the most interesting time to live there because Apple had yet taken over. Yeah, what was pre-Apple Cupertino, what was the vibes like there? I don't know. There were actual orchards and stuff and factories. And everyone would just make fun of Apple because nobody actually owned one at the time. Joke was on us. What fucking loser would buy one of these little dumbass computers? And when you said orchards, were they apple orchards? I think orange, but I don't know if I'm just misremembering because that doesn't make sense, right? That's like a more southern hemisphere type thing. Northern California doesn't make sense at all to me on every level, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were growing some fruit they shouldn't be growing. We got apples in Glendale, too. Anything's possible with technology and all that stuff. Did you ever live in San Francisco proper or no? No, never. So you never took the BART into the city for some hijinks, go beat up a homeless guy, hop on a bus that you didn't pay a fare for or something like that? Yeah, but we were definitely just sort of meek suburban kids doing that and then driving home at the end of the game, going to a Giants game. Wow. Nothing meek about that. You've got to start somewhere. I know. The thought of going to a baseball game is so boring, even at that age. Were you betting on it? No, but the thing is, that was like... the perfect way to be out of the house as long as possible. Oh, I see. I see. You're kind of like, hey, we're doing something. We're going to be here for like four and a half hours. And you could tell your parents, we're going to go watch America's Pastime, a game of baseball. And then they say, oh, that's awesome. Have a great time. Yeah. You're never going to get into any trouble there or try your first cigarette or surely anything like that. Exactly. For me growing up in Orange County, that was Disneyland. Every Friday night, I tell my mommy I'm going to go to Disneyland to go play with Donald.

I was really just chugging Southern Comfort until I fell asleep on a park bench. Wait, do people go to Disneyland every week? Oh, yeah. Is that a thing? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's like full articles and documentaries and all that stuff. Oh, you're not familiar with this culture? It's a very strange thing. No, I'm not. I only discovered this when I moved to L.A. It's a full subculture of people. They have a magnet or a sticker on their car. that's mickey ears and what does it say jason ap like all park pass maybe yeah i think so yeah it's called they're called disney adults wow it's a huge subculture and they have like um i guess there's a lot of I'm sure it's on Reddit or whatever, but there's these communities where they all trade secrets about where you can smoke weed and not get seen by a camera. Or this area or that area, how to scam the system for more points. But if it's Disney adults, it's probably less weed smoking and more like, if you go to this corner with this child, there's no cameras there. Stuff like that. I don't want to get into the details, but that's kind of how the Disney adults roll. But no, I grew up as a Disney adult, but only, you know, I guess it was more of a Disney young adult, I should say. But like, I know, I'm friends with people who are, you know, in their 40s in Orange County who go to Disneyland, you know, multiple times per month. Wow. Ain't got no kids. There's a crossover with like guys with tattoos and like plugs. There's a little rockabilly. Yeah, there's like a little bit of a subculture crossover between like a punk hardcore rockabilly. and also Disney Adult, which is one of the most twisted intersections that you could ever find yourself in. Well, no, to me, the worst one is the Disney meets Dapper. You guys are familiar with the Dapper subculture? No, no, please explain. I would love for you to explain it. Yeah, please. It grew recently on TikTok, but there's basically just people who dress like they're in the 40s, and they sort of try to incorporate that.

their life interesting with those sort of ancient ways they have pocket watches and they like they live by 40s values they live by 40s values they still have hbo max logins and everything but like whenever applicable i'm sure they brush their teeth with like Dr. Johnson's teeth powder instead of the Marvis. They have little tins of cocaine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They do heroin, but it's doctor prescribed for pain. Right, right. Basically, if the 40s version of it looks sicker than the modern-day version of it, then they will get it. But they're not going to have a 40s television or anything like that, or maybe a typewriter or a radio or a comb or something like that. But all those people... all those virgins will gather multiple times a month or, I mean, a year in Disneyland and wear their finest dapper clothing and twirl a pocket watch around Toontown, I don't know what, in hopes of attracting the gaze of a dame, perhaps. But are they on, like, IG? Like, do they partake? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, how do they document this if they're on, like... this intense 40s wave i think i mean like like i said they kind of picked their battles on their luddite wave where like certain you know like i we need a videographer of course and he has to have a 5d or red cam but But yeah, otherwise, yeah. They're able to somehow justify the Steadicam, but the Apple Watch has to stay in the drawer. If you didn't film the straight razor shave, did it ever happen is sort of their logic. But I thought about this yesterday. Somebody on Twitter yesterday posted my... Do you remember a website called How's Your Edge? No. Unfortunately, I do. Okay, so How's Your Edge was a website that would post... an update on someone that had left the warm embrace of the straight edge community and kind of gone on to greener paths. It was like a do-moi for people who listen to Poison the Well. Exactly, exactly. So it would, and someone yesterday had found my, this is insane, this person went this far back. Unearthed. Wait, wait, can I ask a clarifying question? Yeah.

You are clearly a notable person, but are these like famous straight-edge people? Or is it just like Max from Burlington? We'll do air quotes on the word famous, obviously. If it's a slow news day, I don't pick up. Audio only. So it said on this website, Chris Black, unknown, United States of America. Former member of Atlanta band One Step Closer. Once this kid wore baggy shorts, chokers, and covered a chokehold song. Now he listens to Interpol, works at a clothing store, and does coke. Wow. When I read that. I like that straight edge people can't work retail. Yeah, I'm like, first of all, this sounds like I'm pretty cool. But then now that we were just talking about these 40s, these dapper people, I'm like, I was wearing baggy shorts, chokers. And like, you know, black T-shirts. Is that really any better? That's that's what Bella Hadid's boyfriend was wearing just yesterday. Good enough for Bella. Good enough for Chris. That's what I said. OK, I just didn't know if I didn't know if you're familiar. Are you familiar with Makeout Club dot com? No, I'm not. OK, this is like been the most educational 18 minutes I've spent quite some time. We're just getting started. I spent a lot of time on Makeout Club. It was it was pre social media. where anybody who is emo, hardcore, straight edge, goth, metal, whatever, if you were adorkable and funky and you had a lip ring, this is where you would go to trade nudes with other 17-year-olds in hopes they would touch your penis or boobs or something. But it was like the categories of things you could list, obviously books. Okay. Catcher in the Rye is number one, you know, or whatever. And then it's, and then it's of course music. Great Gatsby. Yeah. Great Gatsby is high on the list. So then it's, then it's music. So it's like converge the Smiths, Jesus and Mary chain. And then some other assorted details films, of course, you know, where you could talk about Godard and other famous train spotting. There's drugs in it, but it's actually sick. Exactly. But these, these, the reason I bring this up is because I've been dying.

for someone of a proper stature to do a deep dive on this and how important it was because I think that it really was kind of genre and era defining in some way and in many ways was also the blueprint for like Friendster and all the stuff that came after it and it was built by this guy from Boston who was in like a band. So it was proto social media and dating apps. kind of at the same time. But, like, the dating, that part of it was, like, foregrounded in all this? Or was it just kind of like a product? In the same way that, like, when you go to an emo show, you go there because you like the music, but you also go there in hopes of potentially finding a suitor who has the same taste as you. You know what I mean? In an emotionally charged room. Yes. And also this is an era where it wasn't quite as easy. This is the first time that it was made available in some ways. You know what I mean? Where it was like beforehand you had to see somebody with a David Bowie t-shirt on and approach them. And this kind of cut out that you could bang the AOL address and see what happens. So it was very ahead of its time. Yeah, there's a little misconnection, Z, like, hey, is anyone going to the Undertow show on Saturday? I'll be there. And then you're like, oh, maybe we can link up and get Taco Bell after. Yeah, we can have falafel together. It'd be hot. Have a little falafel. Maybe we can get a hummus wrap. So you guys were both on this. Is that how you know each other? Yeah, that's right. I was only a lurker. I jerked Jason off in Orange County after an Unbroken show. It didn't really go well after that. And I was like, this was cool, but I think we should just stay friends. It did not go well at first, but with years of therapy, it sort of worked itself out. No, it's just something that, I mean, I just think we both, I was definitely on it, and most of my peers were on it. But it's just something that comes up from time to time, I think, in our discussions, because it really was such a precursor to so many things, and I've never seen anyone do.

a real story about it or the impact and i mean obviously it's very niche but at the same time this sounds like you're the person for this job unfortunately yeah it sounds like you're pitching us no i can't do this bro do a narrative podcast on this fuck narrative narrative podcasts are for nerds first of all yeah but that's how you get a little check some someone you know someone's gonna give us 17 000 for a 12 episode deal on this shit bro what are you doing what are you doing a podcast who's gonna who's gonna give you the bread why who's gonna hook you up you're talking to me yeah We already do a podcast, bro. Who else would we be talking to? I thought you meant like Jason's going to go solo or something. I have my extra strategy. Don't worry. I have one more, one last question about the thing before. What was your handle on, was it makeoutclub.com? I think you could, it was probably a classic X, C-Town X. Okay, that's great. Which was my moniker because I was from a place called Conyers, Georgia. You can do the math. I did secure the AOL handle as well. So it was kind of – I had continuity across all socials at the time. That's great. Just locked down across. And you also had a business card, Chris. I did have a business card in high school that just said Chris Black Vegan and then my email address at AOL.com. That's great. That is a good part because that is that one little strange late 90s, early 2000s era where you're like, yeah, I don't do a damn fucking thing and I should have a cool business car just in case. carry 11 of them around with me when i go get burritos with my friend just in case i run into an exciting opportunity i mean it's i miss it honestly i think the business card era was was better remember when you could like tap your phones together and exchange information like that bumping that's the worst that's the worst era and now we've moved on um did you give do you have any did you give a lot of them away like well you know how hardcore were i mean that i don't actually to be honest that well it was just very much kind of like a like don't worry we're gonna talk about pj harvey in just a second don't you worry all right cool well yeah we'll get to kurt cobain or whatever your little book or whatever but no they um they they um

No, but that scene in that world was very built on like kind of like a – not the way that corporations use the term now, but the actual meaning of the word community because it was based on scenes that were kind of disjointed but all like connected through touring and et cetera. But there was a lot of kind of like keeping in touch pre – cell phone pre you know early internet yeah yeah so a lot a lot of it was like i mean correspondence yeah i distinctly i mean i've written many letters and put five dollar bills in in envelopes to get seven inches and shit but so i think that that is why it existed more in that world is because there was this kind of like necessary level of communication to keep the whole thing going that like existed on aol in the early days and you know I wasn't carrying around a pen and a pad like I was from the 40s. But did anyone ever give you a business card? Like, did another kid at a hardcore show ever be like, I have a business card for you, too? Actually, yes. But, I mean, I want to say that I'm ahead of the curve, you know, pushing boundaries. I definitely didn't invent this. I wasn't the only one. But it wasn't as common, maybe, as I would like it to be. I had never seen a business card until I met Chris. Didn't even know they existed. I guess we should talk about this book. What do you think? Are you ready for it? Whatever. I mean, I'm so tired of my own thoughts at this point. All right. Have you seen what's going on with this Adam Levine guy? He's up to something over there on his DMs. Have you seen this? The book is getting rave reviews. I don't care to talk about the book, but I do want to say to you that your publicist, one of the best in the game, this interview has been lined up for three and a half months. And I am very happy about that. I have to say, you guys took a chance on it. Shout out Elena. This has been locked in the calendar. This is the first thing that was locked in the calendar. That's because we should be at the top. And unfortunately for a lot of people, we're in the middle. And that's not where I like to be. I like to be at the damn top. But I do think it's interesting because writing a book is obviously, I would say, the most difficult thing you can do as a creative person.

When I was reading about you and this book, you've been working on this for like an eternity. Yeah, for like 20 years. I mean, not continuously, but it just sort of been. No, of course, of course. Yeah, but I've been working on it, yeah, since like 1998. Damn, bro. But at the time, I didn't know that that's what I was doing. I thought I was just writing to write. Yeah, but that's pretty insane. But I think that's also the only way. That just seems like such a better way to do something like this because you kind of know the information's a little bit better if it was written at the time that it was happening. All those, all the little details. Yeah, because I know you've smoked hella weed since then, so you're probably not, you know what I mean, you're probably not able to recall all the minutiae as you work through your life. I've forgotten so many cool things that have happened to me since 1998, never to be documented, unless I do some type of ayahuasca thing or something to recall it back. It's gone forever. Did you have any kind of imposter syndrome involving writing a book? Obviously, everyone has some type of imposter syndrome unless you're an egomaniac, narcissist person. I don't think that you would have any imposter syndrome about writing a book that would have anything to do other than your age, not because you don't believe that your life is worth it. writing a book about i mean i don't i don't i didn't think my life was worth writing a book about and i'm still not sure it is but i mean it's for sure not it's for sure not but it's more of an age thing of like it's like i guess there's more to write about i mean i guess the main i don't know if i felt imposter syndrome i guess mostly like the stuff i was into was really pretty basic like in a pejorative sense like I feel like I look back, I'm like, I was just an incredibly generic person who was convinced that I was like, had a singular grasp on this generic stuff I was into. And so, you know, even when we were joking before about straight edge, like that's such like stolen valor on my part. Like, it's not like I had any actual ideological beliefs in anything. It was just kind of.

If people are into this, I'm going to be into something else. So this is the part of the podcast, unfortunately, where we kick your ass, bitch. Yeah, I didn't want to do this. I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to send some guys over there. So you're going to wait for the knock. No, no, no. So at the time you were like, I'm a pretty unique and cool bro. And then once you get older. you realize it might be a little more homogenized or something. I think that's something that we all can relate to on some level. For sure. You know, when you're like, oh, my little favorite band that nobody knows about. I guess they did go platinum, so that means I'm not the only person that enjoys Alice in Chains this much, you know what I mean? I think what people are responding to with you more than anything is point of view, which I always stress on this show is all any of us have. It's like we're all into basically the same shit at different levels, but the way we take it in and process it and then regurgitate it, if we feel so called to do so. is that's what you have i think that's why people are responding to this you know what i mean because it's like that's just that's the singular experience that you're able to kind of give the world we're all into hunting fishing and working for a living but how do you deliver that info to in a way that grasps me it's kind of funny just because you know thinking about stuff i was writing about or the shit i was into like i don't think i actually understood any of the stuff that i was into which is probably why i actually just like music where you can't tell what someone's singing about because like people will quote nirvana to me and i'll be like i don't know what you're talking about because i don't actually feel like i had a singular grasp of kurt cobain's anguish or whatnot yeah you know like i used to be super into the smiths but like i didn't realize that their songs were kind of funny Like I just took everything really seriously until someone's like, you know, like Morrissey's actually like, yeah, yeah. This is all kind of a joke too. And I'm like, oh shit. Like.

that's a completely different reading of everything about this person you're not telling me he's a merry little prankster are you i kind of like that though i think it makes it i don't know it feels like innocent in a nice way to just be like i like this and i have to me that that taught me listening to morrissey at a young age is like you can have these serious powerful profound lyrics and emotions and also have a sense of humor and you know talk about how He talked about the deepest emotions you could experience and then also talk about how sometimes chicks are fat or whatever it is or spitting on people in the eye. No, no, no. I'm being totally serious. Come on. You're smarter than we are. I mean, not. you're talking about when you were younger, not at this point, you're, it's not going over your head or is it still going over your head? Probably when I was like 30, someone was like, these songs are actually meant to be jokes. And I was like, Oh shit, that's crazy. But like, but he actually, he believed that murder though. Right. Like that part's real. Like, yeah, there's certain beliefs that are real there. the racism might be real too but you know there's all this other stuff about nationalism nationalism damn wait till he found chris wait till he finds out about weird owl this is not going to be good oh i that's like i because we joke all the time about how liking lyrics is corny like caring about lyrics as an adult is like child's play to me yeah and some people some people don't like that when i say that but i'm like are you because it's i don't think people are especially with popular music i feel like the lyrics are truly obviously there's experts that come in and write them they're called top line you know what i mean there's a whole culture of that but i don't think it's like another thing i've just learned about so about songwriting yeah Yeah, no, I mean, that's how country music is. That's why I've kind of shifted my focus there. But I think that in general, lyrics at this point are just like the frosting on the cake. I don't think it's labored over like it was maybe when we were younger, or at least in certain genres. I guess if you've listened to enough songs and you have a heart inside of your body, you can tell when the lyrics are truly heartfelt, emotional things that they're trying to...

convey versus like oh you just hired you know whoever the chain smokers uses to write how it's crazy that you're lazy and you're walking and you're talking you know like okay those are lyrics i don't need to pay attention to and i think that's the problem it's like there's one out of a hundred songs have real lyrics nowadays that's true it's it's become it's become unnecessary i mean tell that to the the 1975 bro that's i mean but i think it's also depends on who your fan base i think some people like it's like my chemical romance or something like i think those lyrics are fucking corny but if you go to the shows like they're adult men crying who identify with that and really care it's like a certain kind of band the majority of people are simple folk With simple minds. That's true. And speaking of the chain smokers, I don't know if you caught this, but one of the smokers is dating Steve Jobs' hot daughter now. I'm assuming you already knew this? No, I did not know this. I thought, how many smokers? There's just two dudes, right? There's just two smokers. Yeah, there's just two. Like one half of the chain smokers. One half of the smokers, but everybody's been talking about Eve Jobs because it's like. It's a classic. She's rich. She rides horses. She's hot. Wait, her name's – I'm sorry. That's right. I can't get past that name. That's incredible. Yeah, because Steve's like, I can't name this chick Steve, so this is the next best thing. But when you look, she's pretty hot. She rides horses, and you know she's going to be a billionaire. That's a thoroughbred, no pun intended. Unless his Epstein files come out, she's set for life. Yeah, she's good money. So it's like for her to date a smoker is kind of sending people into a spiral because we thought she was maybe above that, but he's hot and rich, so maybe it just makes sense. We thought she was going to be a different Nepo baby, but it turns out they're all the same, huh, Chris? I was hoping for more. But this is what Cupertino does. Clearly, I mean, you sat up to deliver this news. I don't know if the listeners at home could tell this. Look, if you have enough willpower to resist the Chainsmokers, good on you, because I don't. Yeah, no, there's no way in hell. I got nothing. I have absolutely nothing.

But I also saw your story about another podcast. Well, we could talk about – Chris, why didn't you want to mention the podcast by name? Just a simple – any podcast is competition and we needn't shine a light on them? Yeah, unless you're paying me, I can't shine a light on these other programs, even though they're not competition in this case because they're obviously, I don't know, 50 times bigger than what we're doing probably. I just want to make sure that we were considered, and then your editor was kind of like, no, Drink Champs is a better idea. It would have been a conflict of interest, obviously, just because this was locked in. This was like in the Google Calendar going back to the spring. That must be the reason. Yeah, I didn't read that piece on Drink Champs, and I've actually never watched it or listened to it despite everything. I don't know why, because I like rappers and getting... quote, pissy drunk. Are you an avid listener of the podcast yourself, or were you assigned this assignment? Yeah, I mean, I listen to it a lot, but mostly because I just find silence terrifying. So I'm just always listening to something. And their podcasts tend to be like four, five, sometimes six hours long. So it's like the ridiculousness effect. It's going to pound itself into your brain, whether you like it or not, just because there's so much of it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they did a five-hour podcast on the making of the war report that was just as much about, like, the Sbarro's down the street as it was, like, the music. So I'm like, all right, you know, this is all data. You know, I only listen to two podcasts, Joe Budden, the best podcast, and sometimes the Charlemagne Tha God podcast. The Alpha and the Omega. Yeah, exactly. Which seems like... You're ripe to be a listener of Drink Champs, though, based on your other previous listeners. That's what I'm saying. That's what I mean. I've checked out clips here and there, but do you think that that style, as a listener of podcasts and as obviously someone who's chronicling them at a high level, do you find that format?

Like, because I find an hour is like the max that any podcast should be. But there's another subset of people that are like, no, we want to go long as hell. I think it's the Rogan effect to some extent. Yeah, yeah. Do you find it meandering or do you find it charming? Oh, it's meandering. It's pretty boring, too. But there is a kind of like, it's like watching, I don't know, like an experimental film or something. Your mind just sort of like shuts off at a certain point. you're coexisting with this thing i can't believe i still can't believe that joe budden is so successful as a podcaster i still remember uh doing a vibe next profile of him when he was starting off you mean pre are you talking about pre-pump it up budden it was yeah pre-pump it up how much did he suck he was uh he was actually a very very nice person he had me meet him at a best buy In Jersey City, I wasn't sure why. Because he got off at three and he could meet after that. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, he said, like, this is where I used to work and, like, steal stuff. So, like, all right, cool. I have the one thing I need for the piece. But he introduced me to, like, his whole family. At one point, like, his mom, his aunts, all sorts of people. And for a while, they thought I was just like one of his friends who was hanging out. And I'm like, that's great. Oh, you're doing his homework? How does this work? I'm like, only one of us is wearing a leather jacket with every NBA logo. I find Joe – I think that part of the reason I like it and I've – I just – I think when somebody gets that popular at being a member of the media, but they actually were in the business they talk about at a pretty real level, it just makes it a little more compelling for people. He's a member of the media, but he had a real hit and did the whole thing. He's not just another academics. You know, academics is a gamer with titties. Or an actual academic. Yeah, yeah. It's like what I'm saying. Far from it. And I think that, I mean, I think he's making a fucking fortune. He's got a Maybach with a driver. Which is upsetting. Yeah, good for him, you know. Now, during this Vibe era, how much ink is Joe Budden getting? Is this a long profile or is this kind of a front of book story? It was front of book, but it was the kind of thing where... 70 words. It was like 300 words, but you would have to spend like...

18 hours with someone okay yeah you know like right i remember going to uh you know roscoe p cold chain yes yes of course of course right uh i i still think he's great but i had to go to philly to interview him i i spent you know like 12 hours with him and it was like nothing he said could actually be published sure it was all like you know why is that exactly like it wasn't proper english or it was like all stuff that was too offensive it was just a lot of incriminating stuff oh okay but uh but what was funny was he had this he had like an asian friend hell yeah and the whole time his asian friend and i he was like talking to me about being asian i'm like this is so this is like a very weird interaction to be having kind of inside this other thing where i'm supposed to be shattering roscoe p cold chain but he that day he we went to a foster home where he gave this sort of inspiring speech to kids about listening to their parents, which is a little ironic given the setting. I watched him coach a youth basketball team. We went around a mall in Philly handing out flyers. So I joined his street team for a while, and people thought that I was Pharrell. I'm like, no, no, the other Asian guy is Pharrell. So Roscoe's doing everything but making music is what it sounds like. Yeah, but that was the most fun. It was definitely a different era when magazines actually had budgets and they would send you to do something for $300 that probably cost the magazine like $10,000. And also artists and rappers and all these people, you would tell them like, hey, a random dorky dude is going to follow you around and hang out with you for a day. And they're like, okay, that's what I have to do. Whereas nowadays they're like... What the fuck are you talking about? That person's not coming out of my private jet. Are you fucking kidding me? They're going to sit at Nobu with me? That's insane. But back in the day, you had to. They would try and make you do bizarre... They would just basically try and engineer these situations for a 200-word piece. You and this person, you're going to go to all these meaningful sites from their childhood. Then you're going to eat at Britney Spears' restaurant. We're going to go shopping together. All these things.

for, like, you know, ultimately, like, very little narrative. Now, did you, in any of these situations, were you, you know, did you ever feel maybe unsafe, or were you bullied into maybe drinking or drugging in a way that you shouldn't have on the job? Yeah, did he make you kiss his Asian friend or anything like that? No, but I remember that time, the first thing he asked was, like, are you into drugs? And I was like, well, I mean, I guess we'll see where the day takes us. You're like, whatever the right answer is, sir, I'm sorry. But no, there's never anything like that. I mean, I do remember when I was hanging out with Joe Budden for the piece, he went to some gas station and he like left the motor. He was driving a Hummer. No one else at the gas station had anything resembling a Hummer. And he leaves the motor running and it's just blasting his own music. He's like, I gotta go get something. And so I'm sitting in this car and all these people are sort of peering in being like, this, this car has been, has been left unprotected because there's just this like Asian kid sitting in it. And I was like, do I have to defend Joe Bud's car? Like, do I have to, am I going to die? Someone tries to take this car. Like, am I obligated to stay in it? Can I leave? Like we're, we're seconds away from a carjacking. Am I supposed to put my life on the line for this leased vehicle? Like, what is Vibe's policy on all of this? Yeah, what's the insurance if Joe Budden gets me killed for a Hummer? Damn, I miss the old Hummer day. Budden's a dream guest for me. I think he's really good at this, whereas some people are not. The beauty of him is he's not... famous enough to trade on his fame to get listeners for a podcast like he's just not he had he had he's got to earn it the old fast yeah he had to be pretty good at it for it to work which i think is also like a really strange kind of exclusive to him situation yeah i wanted to talk a little bit about the book there were a lot of moments in there that i i haven't finished it i'm only about a third of the way through or so but

There was a lot of moments that I identified with during my sort of formative high school years as well. And just kind of the simple act of driving around with no destination perhaps, just a means to hang out with your friends and smoke cigarettes or whatever. But also that first feeling of moving out of your parents' house into your own apartment or home with friends usually or something like that. And I feel like that's a feeling that, you know, a lot of kind of current Gen Z people don't really have the luxury of feeling with such ease as we had back in the day. Like before, you're like, yeah, I have $300. Let's move out. And now, like, your Figma stock has to hit in order for you to get a studio apartment, you know? Wait, what is Figma? I'm sorry I'm using you guys as Google. No, no, no. Figma is... I saw the word earlier today, and I meant to look it up. No, no problem. It's basically like a free web-based version of Adobe Illustrator. Okay. So they kind of democratize Adobe Illustrator, and there's like plug-ins and things that you can buy and add-ons and stuff like that, but they... It's basically just anyone can use it for free, and then it was only a matter of time until Adobe bought it or got taken over by them. They sold it a couple days ago for $20 billion. Shout out to all my homies whose stock hit. Sorry, back to the overreaching point that didn't need to include that tech joke. I mean, I just feel like I don't know what I could add to. jason's eloquent um summary of that section of the book but don't do that you know that you know that big bitch ain't eloquent don't do that don't kiss his ass on the show you better add something big brain i mean i think young people are just more vexed now i mean i i teach college students and i think that they're just well that's what i want i want to talk about because you're around these freaks all day fucking long yeah so you got to tell us what's up because we need to know what's next as far as how we're going to make money off of them well first of all let's start at the start when you said vexed

what do you mean by that exactly i mean i feel like just even the act of driving around with nowhere to go i mean that's just not a very that's not a very like eco-friendly thing to do right and i think that i think that if you're younger now maybe you would not do that like maybe you would uh not you certainly wouldn't smoke right i don't know if Young people do that anymore? Do they? No, I think they sit in a fully furnished basement in a luxury suburb and vape while they scroll. I think that's what they do. They don't have to leave the house. But do you think the reasons for not doing that are purely environmental? I think that's just one small piece of this gluten-free pizza. I feel like part of it. Maybe it's not something that people can identify, but I feel like it's not that kids are just into different forms of fun, but I think they just have a different relationship to fun than I did when I was younger. You know, like I feel like you kind of know too much at too young of an age now, and it probably leads to a lot of, I don't know, like second guessing or just not really being able to just lean into moments the way you might have back in the day. The day being 1996. How can I drive around listening to Saves the Day and also stimulate growth on my personal brand is something that we never had to think about at that age. There's no self-actualization or productivity to just being bored. So now you're like, hey, Steve, do you want to go drive around, maybe get a bite to eat or something like that? If we pull over, if we see a cool waterfall to go swimming in or whatever, And then Steve will be like, what's the play? What's the play? What's in it for me? So, all right, you teach, where do you teach at Bard? Yeah. All right, so you got some crunchy motherfuckers paying a lot of money to hear what you got to say. I actually haven't taught at Bard yet, but I've taught at like Vassar for the past 15 years, which is kind of like the slightly sanitized version of Bard. All right, now I just have to figure out which Beach House song to put at the end of this episode now. Thanks. Nice. So what?

But I'm saying, like, do these kids, do they think you're cool and, like, do they read your stuff or do they take you at face value as, like, professor? I mean, these are schools where students tend to be, like, a little over-familiar with their professors. Sounds hot. Like, romantically? No, not. I mean, I wouldn't know anything about that. So you're like, hey, guys, I'm Mr. Sue. And they're like, oh, we know everything about you, Professor Sue. I mean, like my office is just full of all my normal stuff. So there probably is a sense in which I seem more relatable to them, even though I don't think I understand them at all. But your normal stuff is like a Cameron poster, to be clear. Yeah, there's like a Master P doll in the corner. And like one time I had. I actually taught this guy who was, like, exactly my age. Like, he was a war veteran who was at Vassar. What? And he was exactly my age, and he walks in, and he's like, I have the same Master P doll. And I'm like, you're the first student I've ever, like, had this connection with where you know what that is. Wow. So from one veteran no-limit soldier to another, you were able to relate. Exactly, yeah. To an actual soldier, to a No Limits soldier. I actually have a Master P tattoo. How does that make you feel? You have like a tattoo of his face or of the words Master P? Both would be cooler than what he has. Sadly, neither. No, it's a tattoo that mirrors a tattoo that he has on his body. So on his right or left bicep, I don't remember which one, there's a picture of an ice cream cone. And the ice cream cone has two arms that are buff, and the arms are holding guns. And on his tattoo, it says bout it, bout it in script around it. I like it. I chose to remove the bout it, bout it. Just keep it clean. No text. I forgot that that's a Master P tattoo. I mean, do you have any embarrassing tattoos, or you're clean? You seem clean. I'm clean. It's part of the generational divide between you and I. Do you think?

I guess maybe you're right. I mean, you were prime age to be at the Jim Rose Circus of Oddities and shit. You probably had gotten your nipples pierced and shit. You ever get those nipples done? I can. I have the septum chain that can lift a barbell. You had to draw the line somewhere. My taint strength is excellent, but it's been years, of course. You're going to start teaching again. Is this something that you're going to do for the rest of your life? Do you love it? Or is it just something that... kind of comes with the territory when you're a writer and it's like a nice way to have insurance. It is a nice way to have insurance. That is like the only reason to have a job basically. Sure. But I also, I mean, I don't know. It's like, it's pretty interesting to be around young people constantly. Yeah, I would agree. Access to like what they're into. I mean, maybe when I was younger, I cared what they were into more than I do now. Like I think maybe before I would. think about what they thought was cool and think about if i thought that was cool but at this point i feel so much older than them i'm just like this is all like intellectual to me but yeah i mean i i actually i like teaching so what exactly are you teaching for the record uh teach some like non-fiction writing classes some Asian American literature, American literature. Jason would fail out of all those classes, but I think that the... No, I love nonfiction writing. Suck my dick. Well, I would be here to lift you up and to support you. Good. Thank you for that. Yeah, if you're a class, send me the login for your class. I'll join. Okay, so the book's out in a few days. Jump in on the Zoom. Now, how much promo are you doing? And what's like, are we doing Colbert? Like, how big are we going? Or is it how long gone? The top out. How Long Gone is definitely the one that's weighed in my mind the most, obviously. It's not that obvious. A lot of that of. Like NPR. Okay. Yeah, you're going to kill it on NPR. I could already feel it. I have the cadence already. That's why you teach it. That's why we don't get the call from NPR. If we were teachers at Vassar, they would maybe give us a second look. But I think that's going to help you sell your book across the board, I think, because all these things kind of adding up. That's what I've heard, yeah. That's what Elena tells me. Do we do a two-book deal, or is this a one-off and we're going to come back and shop a second one? I did sell a second book. Let's go.

called Impostor Syndrome, but all it is at this point is a title. I don't actually know what the book is. I just thought it was kind of like a funny title for a book. When you got juice, you could sell it with no, you don't need the text. So you sold it with no pitch, just the name? I mean, I said it would be about Impostor Syndrome and things like that, but... That's about it at this point. Yeah, and they're like, yeah, no shit, Jack. We have 11,000 books called Imposter Syndrome. What else you got? I mean, that's real power because you hear stories about that like, oh, yeah, I sold Jaws. I pitched that to Paramount. It was just an idea I wrote on a cocktail napkin at the Chateau or whatever in 75. You hear stories about that, and nowadays you see pitches, and it's like, full decks and playlists and they spent ten thousand dollars on a design agency to make this pitch and you're just like yeah imposter syndrome what when when do i get my check yeah when is imposter syndrome gonna how long do you need five years ten years what are we thinking it depends on if you can get his imposter syndrome and check i know that's that is the vaccine part of it that's true uh i don't know like 24 25 maybe okay so okay so this is a long exciting this is a very long play this is this your first book or no uh I wrote like an academic book. It's your first major release. Once you get started in all these things, writing a book or being a real estate agent or other things where the money kind of comes in slowly over the course of years, you kind of have to hop on that carousel. And then once you're spinning, you put out a book every couple of years, that residual hits, oh, we're in China now, you got to do the... The Netherlands translation, and that's another eight grand. Once the ball gets rolling and you're putting them out every couple of years, then you will not have to teach anymore is what I'm saying. I'll always need the insurance, though. You'll be balling so much, you'll be able to come out of pocket for that $378. You do have a family, though. Yeah, the Oscar's cheap. The Oscar's cheap.

Are the rights still available for the TV or film adaptation? Yes, they are. Are you asking out of interest? All right. Well, I'm pretty good friends with Eddie Wong, so we can get this thing sold pretty soon. Are you okay? ABC is not looking good for it. This is going to sit real nice at Hulu, and we'll get that ball rolling for you, of course. How Long Gone does take 20%. It's a little higher than normal, but you'll see why. I'm not really in the market, but I'm thinking about you. I just want to make sure that's on the record because a lot of Hollywood power types listen to this show. So I want them to know they can get in touch with your agent, kind of make a play. Because this thing's going to get snatched up as soon as it hits. As soon as I hit the upload button, the sharks start swarming. And that's something that you and your team should be prepared for. Well, I appreciate the HLG boost in all of this. No problem. No, the book, I love your stuff. Honestly, you're a great writer. The book is great. Like, very happy to have you. And you also, you have some nice. You're really stunted on the blurbs back here. I'm just checking it out now. Oh, really? Chris, do you remember any of these impressive blurbs? I mean, we got Jonathan Latham. He's a National Book Critic Circle Award winner. Oh, he got the circle? You got Ocean, bro. You got the world's premier. He's number one. He's got more covers than John Mayer right now. And we've also got Gia Tolentino, who some people feel a certain kind of way about. But, yeah, this is a great collection. of blurbs and i know that's kind of what really sells books these days so i'm happy that you got those chris loves a blurb do you i mean do you read blurbs i actually do read blurbs because especially if i know or i'm going to be in touch with the writer yeah because that shows you number one how connected they are and number two um how how how connected their agent is so that's kind of what that's kind of what i'm not i'm not looking for reviews or a little boring blurbs or kind of where the that's where you can read the

cards you know like what have you gotten into just on the strength of the blurb um actually that book yoga oh the emmanuel uh yeah i saw somebody talk about it and then i was like oh let me read the blurbs i'm like damn this sounds lit you know yeah and it's it's a look it's a slow climb i'm not gonna lie uh but i i like that it's um you can kind of tell even though it's expertly done that it's like translated yeah you know what i mean which makes it almost like more simple to read, which is kind of nice in a way. For me with yoga, I like to do it. I don't want to read about it. That's one way. That's kind of one way to look at it. You know, Jason, I'm pushing myself physically every day, so I need to kind of work on my mental as well. Wait, can I ask you one last question just while I'm here? Go ahead. You're looking directly. Are you looking directly at me? Like, where are you looking right now? Because your gaze is fixed. I'm looking at you or I'm looking at my beautiful new shape-up I just got down the street. I don't know. Chris will usually look at the reflection of himself in his camera or an email. So don't flatter yourself, sweetheart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just disorienting because one of you, I feel like I'm being... You know, like Chris is trying to look through me right now. Chris is looking through you. I have my camera off because I'm pretty deep into a game of Roblox right now. So I will need to kind of wrap this up. First of all, I'm looking. You should know this as an interviewer. Like, you know, you need to stare through your subject to see their soul. and that's kind of what I'm trying to do here. Mission accomplished. No, seriously, mission accomplished. Yeah, I think his soul has been ravaged. Okay, good. Torn limb from limb. I did have one more question for you. You mentioned there was a lot of romanticizing about the early college days of smoking cigs in the dorm or whatever, and I never went to college, but I could only assume. I've seen dorms on television and stuff. Yeah, Felicity was great. You mentioned... a pack of cigarettes, a fresh pack of cigarettes is equal to 20 new conversations. You know, you love the idea of smoking as a means to have conversations. So my question is, do you still smoke or are you a pussy? I still smoke a couple times. I don't have a pack, but I'll still smoke a few times a year. But like a week and a half ago, I just like washed my hands with Purell.

and i lit the cigarette and i fucking lit my hands on fire which i did not know was a thing but like i lit the cigarette and all of a sudden my hands were blue and i looked down i'm like damn bro what is going on and then i threw it to the ground i shook it off but um i didn't realize that that was possible damn i mean chris chris doesn't need another excuse not to use hand sanitizer but we found another one yeah i wash my hands like a pre-covid adult but you guys can keep using that little alcohol infused uh putty i use some nice dial soap or some soft soap exactly back when soap was soap when men were men thank you thank you so much for taking the time the book stay true is out very soon go order it online pre-order whatever blah blah blah thanks for taking the time to talk to us and if you need uh you know a a college course for nonfiction writing. Look him up. Vassar's available on Zoom now, I believe, right? Oh, again, I didn't know you were talking to me. Yeah, if you want to Zoom into my courses, I'd love to have you. That's cool. Can anyone do it, or do you have to be accepted into the Vassar College? No, civilian. I mean, I've definitely had just random folks. Zoom into my class. Honestly, we'll offline about this, but I would like to do that. I've never been to a college class in my entire life. Yeah, come through. And he will look through your soul during that class. All right, bro. Way back to New Orleans. That murder happened to other worlds. So fool, watch your back. The Mardi Gras look good, but some toys don't make it back. And niggas ain't trippin' on your life. They ready to take your ass out before the count of one, two, three. So give me your gold.