352. - Otegha Uwagba

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Wow. Okay. Them jeans coming in fucking hot. Let's go. A rare Early podcast during the week to accommodate a British guest. We love crossing the pond here at How Long Gone. Today is no exception. Jason, how are you feeling? DJ Them Jeans was on the decks last night at legendary Silver Lake Nightclub Tenants of the Trees celebrating our newly unmasked friends, the Ion Pack. I got a little hungover at the Discord mixer last night. The Tenants truly is a hellhole. I'm sure in four months, I'm going to DJ there again. Did Rick Caruso clean up tents of the trees just in time for this event, or was it still a little rough around the edges? Rick Caruso, he pledged to clean up the transient feces that had been smeared on the walls over the last quarantine. But just like the rest of his policies, he's kind of all talk and no go. Yeah, that's right. And Jason, I don't like when you refer to your graffiti brethren as transient feces. Okay, that's a little harsh. Chris, that's the name of the crew. I don't know. I mean, they went to RISD. It's like a funky, different kind of style, like hobo vibe. I know that once you got a little money and moved to the suburbs, you started calling yourself a street artist. So I just want to make sure that you don't kind of forget where you came from. Yeah, I came from the street.

Just because I started customizing MCM bags for a living doesn't mean that I'm still not in the mud. No, I understand. In all those years working with Shepard Fairey really paid off. I can kind of see it in your style. Both digital and physical. Yeah, I'm a little hungover. Let's just cut right to the chase. What drugs did you do? No drugs, bro. I kept it. I mean, it was a Monday. I know. You know, like Monday night. I know. Because I was going to a party that starts at 10. That means an 8.30 dinnertime on a Monday. How does that make you feel, Chris? Well, I had an 8 o'clock reservation last night at San Ambrose, but I was on West Coast time. It makes me feel bad. That's the answer to your question. Had a nice dinner. Ran into Brandon Wardell in Silver Lake on the streets. DJed probably like 11, 15 till 12 or so, something like that. Now, what kind of... music did you play? You could almost feel the air quotes being produced when you said music, which is fine. No, I mean, you know, it was a little rap music and a little kind of dark British. hardcore and things like that not your kind of hardcore no no i had a feeling i it's always confusing to me when hardcore has multiple meanings like that and that's just that's just musically yeah i don't even want to get i don't even want to get into your bdsm stuff well i mean i'm a hardcore gamer so there's a lot of different ways that we can do it but yeah you know it was kind of a bummer because like the the equipment at tenants of the trees If you can believe it was not up to snuff. Are you saying that Tents of the Trees didn't update their CDJs when they heard Dim Jeans was coming to bless them? They actually downgraded. They actually, from the, when I used to DJ there, the, and this is not a joke, the equipment is older. They have CDJ. So, like, right now, there's CDJ 3000s. Like, when we were playing in Toronto, and you could kind of see, like, the album artwork on the little platter, and it kind of looked futuristic and tech, you know? You remember that. And then there's the 2000s, but they had 1000s there, which I'm pretty sure were made, like, not a joke, like, around 9-11. Like, maybe 20 years old.

They were all broken and shit. But that club isn't that old, so they just always had shitty gear. No, no, no. I think they literally just were like, okay, the other equipment had Diet Coke and Ketamine spilled all in it, so we have to replace them. And then they're like, ooh, we don't have the money to do that. I hate when I drop my Diet Coke and my Ketamine down the same crack and I can't suck it all up. Yeah, the CDJ-1000 was released in 2001. It was an updated version of it, but either way, piece of shit. So that part was a bummer, but, you know, and there's no monitor to hear anything that you're playing, but nobody there really cared anyway. It wasn't like a dance floor vibe. So you're telling me that no one was dancing to them jeans on a Monday night playing British hardcore? No, no, no, there were people dancing. There were definitely people dancing. All 11 of them were loving it, but, yeah, it was mostly just people kind of hanging around, smoking cigs, talking shit, which is what I was doing when I wasn't DJing, you know? But it was fun. It was good to see all the Ion bros. It was nice to see them unmasked. This is what I always told them. I was like, guys, if you look like fucking Igor, I would tell you to keep the masks on. But you guys are young, strapping, good-looking, talented guys. You've got to let those pearly whites shine. And no better place to do that than the New York Times newspaper, of course. You know, I think that. And thanks to a friend of the show, Jonah Hill, for tapping in with them and not shaving for the Zoom or anything. That's really great of it. Chris, where are you coming to us from? You sound a little different. Yeah, I switched up on you. The room has a different echo and reverberation to it than normal. Yeah, it's the New York City How Long Gone offices here where the soundproofing has yet to go in, but we're working on that. It's getting money season because sometimes in the summer, Jason, people choose to kind of fuck off. They go to Italy. They go to the Hamptons. They go to, you know, other, Palm Beach. At me next time. Yeah, I'll at you, little bitch. So they all go there, and their laptops don't work, and they don't have, you know, they can't use their phones. But this is the time where grusslers, grusslers like me and you, real street guys.

This is when we get our paper up so we're ready for fall to really start shooting. Right. So we're not going to Florida where computers and phones don't work. We're going to stay right here in a metropolitan area. Exactly. First world country and we're going to get this guap. They call you first world TJ. So that's kind of nice to hear. But yeah, it's time to get guap. I can get a tan while guapping. You know what I mean? I don't need to give up guap. People think that you have to choose one. Right. And I don't think that's – Well, at a certain point, you should choose one, even if you don't want to. You're in the sweet spot of can't do – like we were talking about with Andy Baragani, like I can't just sit on a beach towel all day and read a book. I'll go crazy. And also – We're strongly anti-activities. That's a good point. I don't want to sit on a towel. I'm glad Andy can relate. But you also don't want to do activities. That's right. My activity would be sitting on the phone in a different location. Or laptop. Whatever it may be. We do have a guest today, Jason. We're crossing the pond for my friend Otega Uwagba. She is a best-selling author, multiple books. Her most recent is We Need to Talk About Money. It's a memoir and cultural commentary from 2021. But she also writes for all the heavy hitters, The Guardian, Vogue, Gentlewoman, The Cut, Days, ID, et cetera, et cetera. Her and I met because she – I think I told this story. She interviewed me for a story she was writing about parasocial relationships from podcasting. And then she said – She was like, yeah, sorry you got cut. My editor said this guy sounds like he's having too much fun. So I wasn't damaged enough by the way that podcasts work for me to be included in the story. It's a great story. I would go look into it. Well, now I can't wait to get a behind-the-scenes look on what hit the editing room floor. All right, let's give her a ring. We could do this all day. Okay. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace.

Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince.

Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. I like the idea that you think you need to get dressed for this podcast because Jason refuses to. And I usually I'm wearing often the same white T-shirt, but I'm in New York. So I'm wearing I've had to switch it up because I have a different wardrobe here, obviously. I mean, the whole point is that I thought I didn't need to get dressed, which is why I'm wearing this. Like, honestly, if I wanted to make an effort, you would know about it. But this is my like, I thought the camera was going to be on. We've seen the IG. We've seen the IG. Have you done a little recce, Jason? I got a little follow earlier, back two hours ago, and I was like, whoop. I've got a call-up. Jason's doing his research. Jason's doing his morning research. I got the call-up. Are you team follow-back, Otega? I don't know if I noticed anything. I can be. Would it make you feel better if I followed you back? Oh, well, I mean, if I have to ask, then I don't really feel like it anymore. You know what I mean? So my thing is, I don't automatically follow people back.

Because I'm like, I mean, especially not on Instagram. I'm more like to follow somebody back on Twitter. But I'm actually not that interested in like most people's lives, but not in a rude way. I understand that you and Jason could get a little competitive about your sponsored content. And I wouldn't want that to cause like a rift between the two of you. Do you do a lot of sponsored content, Jason? I barely do any. Oh, barely do any. Interesting. It's a nice, it's a job. It's a nice, hey, we've all got to pay the bills somehow. I don't get any book advances or anything like that, so I need to supplement my income. People always talk this game about writers, like book advices, but you know this, you guys have spoken to Raven, writers don't make as much money from books as everyone thinks they do. I make a decent amount because my books have gone. I have fucked around and made a nice little coin because my books actually sell. This box room is the room that my books are paid for. For our listeners at home, she's showing all the different languages that all of her books are written in. She's like, that's another bag. That's a bag. That's a bag. Here's the German translation of my book. I have so many of them that I literally use them as like... just things like stands, like furniture. I genuinely don't know what to do with all the translation copies. You give one to the postman during holiday season maybe. I haven't actually thought about doing that because my postman asked me when I moved in after a couple of months because I get a lot of books delivered, obviously, because I'm a writer. You're like, hey, you speak Chinese, right? Here you go. But I also answer the door without fail, no matter what time of day, in my pajamas or in my dressing gown, just very unemployed vibes. So he was like, what do you do for a living? And I was like, oh, I'm a writer. And he was like, oh, okay, it all makes sense. I think he was curious why I was always at home, why I had a fairly nice flat, but also don't seem to do any work. My goal is to have a fairly nice flat and also not do any work. So I'm a little bit jealous of that because that sounds pretty sick to me, honestly. No, well, Chris wants to be a park life layabout, but we all know he doesn't have it in him. Without working, he will die.

Chris, you strike me as someone who likes working. I love working, but I like to work on Chris's terms. On Chris's terms. Yeah, my aim in life is to do as little work as possible and be paid as much money for it as possible. Okay, well, that's a wonderful thing. I have a very exciting NFT opportunity that I'd like to share with you. proposition yeah we we didn't mean to talk business here in this way but you brought it up so it's kind of like oh my god you two are obsessed with nfts even though you claim not to be like i feel like well no it's it's over it's over now that's why it's funny didn't they all crash a few weeks ago like all the celebs have pulled I haven't. Jason luckily didn't lose his his used Nissan truck with his Bored Ape Yacht Club collection, but he is treading water right now. Thanks to his crypto. Let's just say invest in cold storage, guys. It could happen to you, too. He's looking to diversify his income. His coin base was decimated by writing a book. I mean, you won't make any money out of it, but you should try. You never know. Yeah. I mean, is this strategy when you're writing a book? Because like. For every whatever, 10,000 books, one will make the advance back and then make more money, right? Usually it's like we're going to give you whatever, 20 grand, 15 grand, 10 grand. 50 grand, whatever. A little bit more. We're going to give you that. If you make it back, then you'll start making residuals. And most people never get anything beyond the advance. Yeah. Most authors don't earn out their advances. But it also depends. If you get a really small advance, then you do earn it out and you start getting royalties. For instance, for my first book, I didn't get a very big advance. And it meant I earned out really quickly and started getting royalties. But from the publisher's point of view, most books lose money. And then you have the absolute juggernauts. Zadie Smith or Hidden Mantel that just make shit tons of money and then there's like IP that gets sold so maybe that turns into a TV show or a movie. It's a commercial business just like any other. I think a lot of writers forget that but I used to work in advertising so I think I'm a little bit more like...

money-minded and like business-minded what kind of what kind of stuff were we selling it when we were in the advertising game let's talk because you know i've been on the i don't want to i don't want to boast but i have been part of a think tank for the dixie cups corporation oh yeah well the chris what chris did for dixie cups during pride was crazy he wanted to make a rainbow cup and it was like a dixie cups the kind of like they're kind of racist Oh, wow, wow. No, sorry, okay. The word Dixie is a little... Yeah, that's like the southern, like, confederation flag. So you were selling... That's my forefathers. Rigs to racists. We're moving away from the Dixie brand name. Exactly. We're trying to kind of modernize for today's times. What did I sell? I sold... Ooh, didn't I sell? I sold... broadband internet for a while. Classic. That's a big money account. That's a big money account. Yeah, it was like a huge retail account, just like absolute killer, but, you know, kept the lights on. And I did a lot of booze brands, which was like quite fun. And then what else did I say? And then I worked for a brief stint at Vice. Oh, you know, I didn't know this about you, but, you know, I have deep Vice connections as well. Oh, really? That's right. Yeah. And it's been amazing to watch that turn into something that I, You know what it is? When I see people post a Vice link, I'm, like, embarrassed for them, like they're posting a BuzzFeed link. It turns so fast. It's so interesting that that happened. And ID is the same. I mean, ID, which is, like, legendary, is turning a bit that way because of the Vice ownership. Oh, that's interesting. I haven't thought about that because I joined Vice not long after they bought ID, and it was definitely very culturally different at the time. I think the thing with ID, I don't love their digital content. The digital content is literally like, we found these trans amputee artists that also... It's always queering something. It's just queering things. I'm like, what does that actually mean? Yeah, I don't understand the headline. To be honest, I don't read ID that much these days, but I definitely feel like...

I don't know. I don't really see it as being that associated with Vice. It's like the way Vice bought loads of things. They bought refinery. Or they bought Garage Magazine at one point. I don't really think... I think it's just because we're old, guys. And this stuff is being written for 19-year-olds. Yeah, for sure. Well, think of yourself. I'm actually a young 31, so I know you're 40, Jason. Oh, that's interesting. Young 31. I'm just saying, you know, like those vices and things like that, it's like the core demographic is 19-year-olds, you know? Yeah, it's not for us anymore. When I read these canned articles that are like... You look 23, by the way. Oh, thank you. So what, did you think I was younger than 31? Let's move on to the next question. I didn't because you're so accomplished. I know. It would be almost impossible with that age span. I mean, I assumed that you were under 30 just because you're on the Forbes list. But, you know, we don't stay under 30 forever. You don't stay under 30 forever. Oh, I thought if Forbes does that, you're kind of embalmed. You do age. It's not like some creepy thing. It's like a now you'll be immortalized. Well, it's weird. All the women in my life told me that you can't. go above 30. So I didn't know that was impossible. If you didn't like my segue into talking about how you're a 30 under 30, we can scratch that one. Yeah, what do you mean? We're promoting your illustrious career and you're just shutting us down like some plebs? No, the Forbes under 30 thing is something that like, it's funny, like when I was like in my early 20s, I was obsessed with it. And I used to like, and I think that's when it started, like Forbes under 30 was a marketing thing. for Forbes it's like obviously they got into a room one day and were like really losing the under 30s how can we make our brand more relevant and I've had like confirmation as from as much from people who work there they were like how can we engage the under 30s with our brand genius idea honestly yeah it did because for a while I've been like you know all these under 30s are like Forbes this Forbes that in a way that just like wouldn't have happened otherwise so I think it started out like with genuinely impressive people

When I was young, when I was 21, 22, I was like, by hook or by crook, I'm going to make it onto that list. I was very, very determined to make it onto that list, which I'm not embarrassed to say. Everyone pretends as though they just wake up and find themselves on the Forbes under 30 list. That's not how it happened. How much did it cost you or your publisher to get on that? You can just say straight up, if it was over 10 grand... The sound is cutting out, actually. Maybe it's time to switch broadband internet carriers. Your connection is cutting out. Yeah, exactly. Well, actually, it's funny because BT broadband, you know, is super, it's only $29.99. I'm always, always like it. You're losing money if you don't do it. I mean, so you were saying like when it first started, like the people were, it was like Astro, like I cured cancer. Yeah, exactly. And also there are so many people on it. And also like I count myself as amongst the people who's like, the kind of latter phase of just like if you're like remotely impressive it's like it's you and a social media manager yeah yeah exactly it's just like product manager at this company i'm like okay like there are so many people on it now because they've got greedy it's like a money-making thing for them so now there's like here it's forbes asia there's forbes general and it's like every year 600 like mediocre people are like churned out like i find it really um I find it really funny. They also do the millionaires list or whatever. Yeah, the funny thing is when I first made the Forbes under 30 list, I told my mom. She was like, oh my God, is the book selling that well? I think if I was actually on the Forbes millionaire, billionaire list, you would probably know about it. I had to explain to her the difference. My head towel is... falling down so i'm just going to readjust one second take your time well i would i i'm going to discuss with when you're back i would like to discuss because i jason can you get a towel to stay around your waist it's tough because i'm i'm real hippie whereas i have a snatched waist but my hips are kind of bigger so it depends on the towel if i if i have the towel of kind of above the hips then easier but right on them okay it can be it can be tricky why do you ask chris i'm just because i can't as well and i have no i can i can

I mean, I can, but it doesn't stay on. I can't wander around, fix myself a pour over. I can't take calls. It just doesn't stay on. Maybe Santa Claus will bring you a bigger towel this year. I don't think it's the size of the towel. I think it's the stride in which I gallop. Okay. So, Chris, you're good at tying the towel. Around your waist? Like, are you confident with your knot tying? Because if you are, you should be able to gallop around the flat without it falling. It's not that I can't. I can get it pretty tight, but then I think maybe because my quads are so muscular, they kind of push against it. They're at odds with each other. Those Ralph Lauren towels are holding on for dear life because your quadriceps are just that insane. The tecla is looking like a Herve Legere in 2006. And I've had a few too many. You know what, Chris? Maybe we should do this. We'll invent a towel that has just like a little button and a hole or like a little metal trouser clasp. Nice. I think they already exist. Chris is saying his ass is kind of so fat and juicy that the towel... He wraps the towel around and the towel just goes... I don't think it has to do with my juicy behind. I think it's just that... I said I try to get out of the shower and do the cool thing where you like tie it around your waist and you're kind of like having some water, making a coffee, taking a call. It's very main character syndrome. But unfortunately, the towel falls down and my hog is exposed and that's not good for anybody. So I'm trying to figure out kind of what the solution is. And I was just seeing you readjust this beautiful kind of prince purple colored towel. And it seemed like you knew what you were doing. Yeah, I do know what I'm doing. But I have to do this like once or twice a week. It's like something. Yeah, well, Chris, when I had longer hair, it's like a thing where you have to put the head, the towel on, and you wrap it up, and you kind of do it like a pineapple, and it all stays. But Chris has no hair, so he never really had to do. I mean, I'd love to see Chris wearing some kind of head wrap. I don't think Chris can do that. I think Chris would be in trouble. Chris definitely can't. Chris cannot post do-rag on Maine. Do you not wear, like, a do-rag to sleep? No, I don't.

I can so imagine. Shut the fuck up! What if I secretly wore a do-rag? I don't have enough. I keep it too short for the waves to even come in. So it wouldn't do any good. Alright, that's the last one. That's the last one. I saw it coming and you know what? I walked right into your little trap. I was looking at your Twitter right after I followed you. You don't have to follow back. I was No, it's fine because I just feel like there's tension and I feel like this next bit of the interview is going to go better depending on whether or not I follow you back. So I'm following you back. You're sweet for thinking that, but unfortunately it won't do any... Oh, shit. I think I blocked you back. By accident. Followed you back. Okay. Yeah, my bad. So you recently retweeted a Gawker article entitled, Writer Shouldn't Talk. Yeah. And it was a quote tweet and then you said the word, Amen. And it's an article about how writers don't have the time to do any actual writing anymore because they're doing podcasts, panel discussions, speaking at colleges. Exactly what you're doing right now, I would like to point out. Grub Street diets. But you have a BBC radio show, a podcast, speaking engagements. So I'm not calling you a hypocrite, but I would just like to hear both of your sides. Oh, my God. The second you mentioned my Twitter, I knew that was going to come up. I even thought about holding off on tweeting that article until after I done things recording. Well, most podcasts look at the wiki, but not me. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a Wikipedia. Someone made one for me, and I asked them to delete it because I was like, I don't have the time to be monitoring. Oh, I was talking wiki feed. Oh, right. The wiki feed is popping. I think you're on 12 pages now. Okay. So, obviously, I think you agree with both sides. Because you obviously do a lot of non-writer things. All I'm doing is non-writer things. I've been taking a break from writing for a while just because I've done a lot of it every past few years. And I just feel a bit burnt out by it. But it is a fact that when it comes to promoting your work, there's just a lot of ancillary content. You have to do a lot of other stuff. And it's fine if it's something like this, which is...

an enjoyable general conversation with two interesting and funny guys. Thank you. We're also, I would say, pretty good looking, but you don't know. I think that's quite subjective, though. So, like, yeah. Moving on. Whereas you are an objective beauty. Yeah, we can lavish you with compliments. No problem. The golden ratio or something like that. I'm not sure if either of you can talk to that. Maybe we don't. Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, it's like in France, they have that thing, Jolie laid, like ugly pretty. Oh, you're saying we're like ugly models, the kind that get booked when they need somebody weird. You know what I mean? Like Jason, because Jason's so tall, he gets booked kind of for some. giant stuff, you know? Just imagine if I had a gap in my teeth. What do I get booked for? Often, if they forget a white guy, then sometimes they will call me. Do like the reverse diversity. Exactly. Oh, we forgot a white guy again. This one has tattoos. Let's get him. Also, it's like you can kind of pass because of skin hair. They can go like full Dixie confederation. But also, you can be like... hipster. You're quite versatile. That's exactly what my agent said. They were a little more... Like Gavin, the guy from Vice. That kind of vibe, right? Yeah, exactly. The Proud Boys. Have you been modeling any Proud Boys merch recently? What are you wearing? I'm wearing a Cranberries t-shirt. Thank you. I got passed up for the Proud Boys lookbook again, so my agent was a little upset. Can you imagine one of those Essence models with red hair modeling Proud Boys. Fred Perry's looking all... The Proud Boys-Fred Perry collaboration coming soon. It was delayed because of COVID. We had some supply chain stuff. Yeah, maybe if Essence had some balls, they'd do that for April Fool's this year. Did you say Essence or Scents? Because those are quite different publications. No, Essence, you're pronouncing it wrong. Oh, is it? So it's double S. That website, that's Essence.

interesting i'd always just like sense but you know the one thing i will say about fucking essence though is they make it so difficult to return from the uk actually one of the boxes in my hallway now it's really hard to the point where i'll just i guess i'll just fucking keep it that's good that's good that's good business that's what i'm talking about it's like too much money for me to like keep this thing that i don't want and doesn't look good on me but at the same time otherwise i like have to go to the post office and like send it like it's 1999. Like, it's just very analog. I'm sorry, just a quick question. If you don't go to the post office to send something, how do you send it? They don't do pickups. Like, most places do pickups. Oh, you get picked up. Yeah. Well, Matches does a pickup because they're just around the corner. They're beautiful. Yeah, exactly. But I don't see why Essence can't, like, do, like, a DHL pickup. I see what you mean. Yeah, it's something that's been bothering me for a while, actually. I've never done a pickup in my life. I always drop off. What? That's right. We're doing the work. I go to my local UPS facility. They know me over there. Shout out to my guys over there. This is so shocking. Why? Because I don't want to wait around all day for somebody to pick something up when I'm out on the road. Don't you work from home or something? This is the ideal thing. I work from home. I book a slot. I'm going to be at home anyway. So you're saying that you book a slot and they adhere to the slot time? Yeah, pretty much. Because they respect me. I'm a frequent shopper. I love adhering to the slot. I'm priority. Yeah. I think in America, people don't really do that. People just, like, it's not a thing where you're like, oh, I'll just have the UPS guy or the DHL guy. I feel like you're doing SponCon for things, but I can't figure out. No, no, I would never. This is, no, no, no, I have no, I have no, I'm getting no checks. I'm not getting any checks from big shipping. We're not, we don't. We don't even do stamps.com ads like most podcasts. Stamps.com slash how long? I just have never, honestly, and I'm not exaggerating, I think I've only returned a piece of clothing or footwear one or two times in my entire life. Are you very, very careful with what you buy? I just think I don't buy that much. And I think this is something I'd like to discuss with you because this is something that I kind of, there's a lot of men that I know that like,

seem to not know their shoe size. Yeah, that's weird. To me, a man, I wear a size 12. I buy a size 12 in every pair of shoes. That's what I do. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Is size 12 like average size for men? No, it's just like I'm saying I know my size and I buy that size. I'm saying that buying different shoe sizes, female trait. What do you think? I think it's different. That's like the most bonkers theory I've ever heard. It is. It is a little bonkers. I think the reason, Chris, is because the variation in women's footwear is much more – It varies. I can think of one time maybe the past five years where I've bought my regular shoe size and it's been way – No, no. I'm saying that you guys – I'm saying that men – Because we're basically wearing the same pair of shoes, the size should stay the same. Yeah, but that's the same for women as well. I buy the same shoe size. Chris, you'll buy a size 8 every once in a while just to mix it up, won't you? Absolutely not. No, my mules, my slides, my stilettos, my kitten heels, they all are the same 12. Oh, my God. No, I've never encountered that before. I buy the same shoe size. I'm a size 8, a 41. If anybody wants to send me shoes, by the way, if anyone wants to listen. That's what I was trying to do. I was teeing you up. Because I love shoes. Mostly designer expensive shoes. What are your go-to? What do you think the big summer shoe is going to be this season? Do you know what? I think people have been pushing clogs a lot. That's right. And I'm not into it. I actually bought a pair of clogs last summer. Do you know what? I was walking down Oxford Street. And it was the first time I was wearing these clogs. And they're quite a noisy shoe. And I was like, so I was in Soho like walking down. I was like, okay, got my clothes. Let's see how it's going. And I heard this like German or like Dutch, like bitch basically turn to her like partners. he was walking, as they were walking past, she was like, something, something clogging, like making fun of my shoes. Obviously being like, oh my God, that girl's wearing clogs because obviously in like, this Dutch bitch is used to these clogs. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a very like untrendy, like traditional, like for them, like clogs are like a sort of like part of their like traditional national web. So I think for her seeing it being turned into a fashion item.

And the fact I also couldn't walk in them because they're fucking walking. So after that, I just never wore them. So I'm anti clogs. I also had a similar experience with clogs when I tried them like four or five years ago. I got some dance goes and I felt like. I walked down Avenue A and they forced me to sashay in this way. I can't believe we're sharing our clogged trauma. That I wasn't personally comfortable with. And then I felt like, and this happens with Clark's Wallabies as well, something that your beautiful homeland has given us. They kind of, I could tip. I could have an ankle roll because of the way the soul is situated. Yeah, definitely clogged. I felt like it was like a walking time bomb. you guys have that super expensive medical, like it's just not worth it. Like if you roll your ankle and you're going to hospital, those clogs cost you more than, you know. That's right. They weren't even expensive. They were just the original. So what, what do you think? I think those clogs, you're supposed to wear them when you work in a hospital or in the, in, in the back of the chippy or something like that. You're not supposed to sashay down Soho. I see people doing it. Chris in like a pair of. It looks like, you know, like the female Donald Duck wearing the high heels. That's kind of what I'm picturing. Yes. Very weird. What is the shoe of the summer? Do you know what? I think a really big, so I love, I missed out on them. The Mark Jacobs, again, if you're listening. Although I do actually know the brown people there if you're listening. But I missed out on the Kiki Boots by, you know, Heaven by Mark Jacobs. I'm familiar with that. Super chunky platform. Kiki Boots. Is that going to take it back to your rave days? Is that what you're kind of trying to... Or is it you just like the style? Or did you love the Winona Ryder campaign? I thought the Winona Ryder campaign was just fine. I think I just really... I think they were just really elegant. I feel like it's hard to do a really chunky platform and make it look feminine and elegant. The Kiki Buddha looks like another ankle buster, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. That's another reason why I think I was secretly blessed not to... I know I'm also already quite tall.

Would this be a daytime look or is this nighttime only? This is definitely a nighttime slash Instagram look. Oh, there we go. Now the truth comes out. So you want them for the flick. Let's be honest. No, no, no, no. But the thing is, I try and avoid, I really try hard to avoid buying clothes just for Instagram because that's when you end up getting bored with your clothes really quickly is if you're like thinking this is going to make a really good photo. like i i try and be quite like self-discipline i do the same thing obviously my clothes do look great on instagram anyway i do the same thing with with my little paparazzi walks you know what i mean i kind of have to like make sure that i have clothes that that kind of fill that void but also kind of i can wear have you ever been packed oh no that was a joke That was a joke. Okay, sorry. That was a joke. I'm sure you have. Have you been the friend on the Daily Mail before? I think I've been named. You've been named, but who are you with? Or was it just you? No, I think it was like a list of people named, and I was one of them. I've never been and friend. No, I've never been and friend. I want to see, but I'm saying walking out of Chiltern with Kate Moss. Oh, no, no, no. Not like Pat. I mean like they've downloaded a picture of Getty Images. No, no, no, no, no. We don't care about that. I want somebody chasing you in a motorcycle. No, I've never been. In Marlebone. You're waiting in the valet. You're hugging somebody in valet before the Chelsea tractor comes out from round. I don't have any celebrity friends. I don't believe you. No, I don't. I don't have any celebrity friends. I find most celebrities quite tedious. That's why I don't do... celebrity interviews like that's why we don't do it either yeah i hate celebrities gross yeah don't text me celebrities well chris loves celebrities you don't but you guys both love a bit of gossip though right like you like i love gossip that's like that was the hardest thing about the pandemic was just the absolute gossip like i used to text my friend I still text my friends being like, have you heard anything? Have you heard anything? It's a general ask. Just a crumb of tea, anything. Yeah, not even about anyone specific. You got so bored you started checking the weather. Yeah, exactly. But the British, I think you guys do gossip. I mean, the Daily Mail is my number one source for gossip. You guys do gossip. It's a bit passe. Sorry. No, but you have the information.

at a a ferocious clip so i don't know i don't know what else there is like what else there is but i'm i'm not really talking about celebrity gossip i'm talking more like kind of petty oh interpersonal kind of low level like who who od'd who's fucking who's pregnant that kind of stuff yeah but more like even like pettier even pettier than that it's like who's like beefing like that i love to know like who's beefing Yeah, who's beeping? Oh, I heard their reading was a low attendance or something like that. I heard their poetry night didn't go great, and not a lot of people were there, and there were no pictures on the wire. Yeah, pretty much. Those are the conversations that I had. Can I ask you a question? Because I'm feeling a poetry trend happening. How long can we fake like we like poetry as a society? All I can say is poetry doesn't make people money, so I don't plan on dipping my toe in that little... Smart. So you ain't going to write any stanzas unless it's for... I'm not going to be writing it. Unless Dua Lipa's recording it and you got some points on it. Yeah, exactly. Pretty much. So yeah, exactly. Unless you kind of do like a... you know, Walsonshire and just get like whatever by Beyonce, then it's fine. But I don't read poetry. I used to as like a kid, but I think, again, it was one of those precocious things that you do as a kid to kind of impress your parents and be like, I'm so worldly and cultured. I love reading poetry. Poetry is not for me. No, I don't. But are you guys, I'm sensing a trend here. I'm seeing it a lot. I think it's much bigger in the US than it is. Because I think actually probably in the US, writers can actually make a living. You guys have that hot model. poet guy uh i can't remember his name he's like way too good looking sunny sunny hall oh yeah he's like a male model who's also a poet yeah but it's like also when you say things i mean i don't know about this guy personally i've never read his work i just think it's a cool combo yeah but also when you say i'm a male model slash poet it's like what percentage of your time is spent doing

The poetry. Well, let me tell you this. It's like a nice little enhancer to your overall brand. I bet he wouldn't describe himself as a male model poet. I bet he would just say poet. I'm saying male model poet. Yeah, but his bank balance probably says male model. That's what's paying the bills. That's right. To me, it's kind of like I don't want, you know, they say never trust a skinny chef. Never trust a hot poet, you know? I'm not sure I see that. I'm not trusting a hot poet. Why? I need somebody to be ugly enough to be able to see the world in a different way. You know, like, they're in the outside looking in, and they're able to kind of have a more... Yeah, it's like when Emily Ratajkowski writes about how hard it is being a woman, and it's like, for you? Or like... All these wheelchair bitches are reading it like, oh, that looks pretty easy for you. I'll say some content about how I look. Are you? But also, hot people deserve to write. I mean, hot people have feelings, too. I know that from experience. There we go. I respect your feelings, and I also am able to respect Emily Ratajkowski's naturally defined abs, and I think that that could cause some suffering. I think it could cause some suffering. Like, sometimes if your shirt is too tight, you can see the abs through it, and some people might make fun of you. I wear my skims so nobody can see that eight-pack. I want it to be smooth. Are you wearing skins just out of shot, Jason? Are you wearing a waist? What is it they call them? A waist trainer. Oh, yeah. You've never heard of waist trainer before. Come on now. No, I have. Because I was going to call it a corset. which is essentially what they are. It is a corset. It's a corset with Velcro instead of shoestrings. As a British person, I'll allow you to call it a corset because that's your kind of nomenclature. It's our heritage, exactly. Over here, we call it a waist trainer, and they are available on Instagram from a handful of people that I follow. I think they do waist trainers for men as well. Oh, definitely. Well, there's a rapper, actually, this week this happened. There's a rapper who came out, and bravely, I would like to add.

as someone who had his body done. And he said, if you're getting your chick body done, why can't you get your body done too, fellas? That's a great point. What did he get done? He said that he had worked out. Like a BBL? No, not a BBL. He got a stomach. Slim BBL. He got the Drake surgery. He got the Drake ab surgery. Wait, what's the Drake? Is Drake's abs artificial? That's the rumors that I've heard from inside sources. I don't want to talk about other men's bodies like that, personally. We all have abs. We all have abs, but you just can't see them on most of us. So he just had the surgery to kind of... Chisel away at the fat and define them. Well, I don't know if it's a... I think it's a step beyond the cool sculpt. I think it is a procedure that might require you to go under. Under the knife. I mean, to be honest, fair enough. If rappers want to get the... Is he now really ripped? I would say he looks better. I wouldn't say he looks ripped. My idea of ripped, though, is obviously not achievable unless you have the genes that allow for it. That's what I've told myself, at least. It was a subtle procedure. He went from thick to slim thick. It wasn't like a night and day transformation. Because it's very easy. Subtleties is where you want to go with any type of invasive plastic surgery. I don't like guys who are too, too ripped. Yeah. Like, I find that quite off-putting. I think a lot of women say that, and it goes, the way that women dress... But I also fancy The Rock. The Rock? Dwayne? Yeah, I still call him The Rock on my head. No, no, no, everyone does. Yeah, I think men work out for other men the way that women dress for other women. Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about it the other day, because my wardrobe is so unappealing to men. And it's like, even like this pair of shoes that I had my eye on, I was like, these, like... Even my female friends make fun of me. They're like, you love ugly shoes. Like, my thing is that I love ugly shoes. And I was like, who am I dressing for? Because women don't like my clothes. Men don't like my clothes. Like, at what point does this just become like... No, I mean, it's kind of, are the shoes ugly hot?

You know, is the question. I just think they're great. They're like, I'll send you a picture of a pair of Chloe shoes. And I'm like, I saw them and I was like, what an ugly pair of shoes. And now I'm obsessed with them. Now, if I see a beautiful girl wearing a pair of ugly shoes, that's Jason's kink. It makes me like, wow, I'm really attracted to your mind now. You know, it's like, it's kind of like, I want to know what makes you tick. Bullshit. Well, this sounds, this is funny that you say this because Jason, Jason also finds himself attracted to challenging footwear he he wears a size 17 so his options are limited he recently i bought him as a gift because i'm not only a friend but also a generous co-host i bought him a pair of the yeezy shoes because he wanted them because he thought and and i was proven he proved himself right that he could kind of show them a new light and really stunt on these hoes he also had some grailed credit size 17 yeezy don't doesn't that just look like you've got like like slab of concrete wrapped around your feet yeah yeah definitely no they're very light they're very light they're like a pair of timberlands or air force ones those are some heavy boys yeah but when you pair the the kind of concrete style yeezy with the shit brown trouser you know what i mean the way jason does there's something is there any photographic evidence of you wearing this outfit Jason. I've got some on my roll. I could share you on my family album if you want. So you guys, the result of this podcast is you two freaks sharing foot pics with each other. I'm glad. So did you have a look at my Wikipedia entry? That was a joke. I actually am on WikiFeet. I was talking about this like a month ago. I thought you were referencing that. No, that was a straight up joke. Only one photo of my feet there at the moment. And they're kind of obscure. Oh, no. But I've got, at the moment, I've got like a three out of five stars. No, that means that's something. There's somebody out there. Who cares enough about your feet. This is just like, okay. But to be honest, I've always gotten a lot of shit from my friends about my feet and how ugly they are. That's not very nice. So for me, go on there. Your friends sound very cool. They sound like me. There's a lot of tough love coming from your friends. Yeah, it's very, it's very. You almost wouldn't think that we're friends. Yeah, so I'm on WikiFeet now. I don't know, like.

if anybody wants to upload photos of my feet and just like upvote me, that would make me feel. Trying to get your numbers up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Trying to get you verified. Get the blue check on there. Do they have wiki feet blue checks? No, but the whole concept of it is apparently celebrity feet. So I guess that's an instant. Between that and the Forbes under 30 thing. So that means you're a celebrity. I think I'm legit. You guys can jerk off to these ugly sandals all you want, but I'm a fucking celebrity now. No, don't say that because the whole point is that it's not for fit-foot fetishists. It's for people who appreciate feet. That is their tagline. That's interesting. So you basically changed some words around. You think you're going to trick me? You think I'm stupid? Yeah. And my Instagram explore page is for me to check out new cooking products to buy. Yeah, how dumb. I'm actually going to look up just for people who appreciate it. I know you're smarter than us, but you're not that much smarter than us. Let's not rub it in our faces, okay? You may have gone to Oxford, but we've jacked off to everything. Whoa, you really did do a deep dive. Did you request my... That's what you took from my sentence? Just to verify me? It's not a deep dive. I did 11 minutes of research. Of research. Oh, the English accent. I actually quite like it when Americans do English accents. Oh, you should have told us that before we started. We would have done it the whole time. In what way do you like it? Do you find it endearing or it's funny to you? I think it's funny. I actually, I would say that weirdly, I find it oddly charming in men. Are you joking? Which I don't want to reveal. No, exactly, because I was like, you guys are both going to start. No, no, no, I won't start, but what is your American accent based on, and can you give us a few bars? I feel like she's low-key very good at doing American girl voice. I think my American accent is very, like... valley girl like share clueless that's what a lot of brits default to yeah um jason and i have a deeper understanding of your country's beautiful culture and we are able to get a little regional with our work i feel like i've exclusively heard you guys do like the cockney accent like that are you having enough i can of course go back what's that i can absolutely go

That's what I heard. I don't know what to tell you. That's what I heard. I'm high. I'm American. And TJ and I are just out here shooting hoops and whatever it is bros do. That's you. That's what I hear when I listen to this podcast. Well, you know what? If that's what you hear and you keep coming back, then I tell you, we're doing something right. Some weird Stockholm Syndrome. I'm like, why do I listen to this show? And yet, here I am. I was explaining to Jason that the way we met is because – Oh, yeah. I want to hear about this. I got – we talked for a solid hour, and then all of my gold was cut from the piece because your editor said he's having too much fun. Is that correct? No. Basically, what happened – this is so funny as well because, Jason, so I interviewed Chris for this piece that I was writing about parasocial relationships, and I was – you gave your time. It was between Christmas and New Year's. I was very appreciative. We talked for a good hour. And then I sent this draft to my editor, and she was like, cut that guy, Chris. I want to hear more feedback. I want to hear more feedback from the editorial board of The Guardian, if you don't mind. Just some specifics on what didn't work for my... She said that this guy doesn't really sound like he cares. Cares about... The parasocial relationship between his fans and him? No, it doesn't sound like it bothers him, which is a good thing. Which is what I said to you. He isn't bothered by all the crazy, creepy fans. Which I think is as a result of you being a chill guy. Don't do your American accent when you say chill guy. Yeah, I know. Sorry. So this piece came out and I'd forgotten to tell Chris that I'd cut him. And then I just get like... I wouldn't say it was passive aggressive, but I did get like a like. Not the like. Look, as a journalist myself, I understand that sometimes sources get cut and that's just part of the deal. But I think it was ultimately a good indictment of where you are, which is that you don't really give a shit about like people who chat shit about you or who are like weird and over familiar. Whereas a lot of the women I spoke to did care.

Well, like I said to you, when we talked, I think for women, it's a totally different, awful monster. Yeah, exactly. Basically, me interviewing a guy who said, oh, I have a pretty okay time in it, but it's worse for women, was like a bad choice on my part. And she was like, just go speak to some more women. And I was like, yeah, okay. That's right. Yeah, letting the fans affect you is a female trait. That was a joke. That was a joke. We just got it more intensely. But I feel like when we talked about it, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's mostly from other women. Yeah, totally. It's not even like dudes being like, let me see your feet. No, no, no. But I don't get like, I mean, I wish. I'm just joking. Very single. No, I don't. But like 94, 95% of my followers on Instagram are women. I don't get. Same, same. Women like to tell you that you're like wrong or that you're, your your take on something is invalid or is it like argumentative i guess is what i'm asking it's like you you haven't factored in every single facet of how this might affect every single person from every single walk of life you haven't factored in my personal experiences and it's like well yes i'm sorry i haven't like you're an elf i don't know it's just like people being like i remember once i posted something like oh people who have lions disgust me which was kind of a bit tongue-in-cheek because I'm a very lazy person. I was just going through a period of waking up early. And I had a message from someone being like, well, actually, I sleep a lot because I have chronic illness and I find this really discriminatory. And I was just like, are you fucking kidding me? You have no sense of humor. No, people have no sense of humor, especially if everybody's looking. Like something like that, you have to really try to be upset by that. That's a pretty innocuous, that's a pretty innocuous comment. Yeah, exactly. Basically, if you give an inch, like if you start apologizing and like entering into dialogue with these people, then that's when they really kind of double down and go for you. So like my strategy is to be, I guess, quite blunt and quite spiky about those sorts of interactions on social media, because I've seen what happens to.

like friends and other women when they're like, Oh, I'm going to engage with this in good faith. And I'm like, no, like there is no good faith here. You just need to block these people. How much time do you spend on the internet? Are you extremely logged on? It goes really up and down. Like I think towards the end of last year, I quit Twitter for like a couple of months and like, I kind of go in and out on Instagram. I would say I'm a very online person, but it's just like possibly a little bit less than it was like two, two or three, like pre pandemic. But I would, No one can ever text me and be like, have you seen this joke? Have you seen this meme? Have you heard this news? And for me, not to have heard about it already. That's right. And I hate when people do it. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. I find it sweet. No, no, no. It's not sweet. It's annoying. But I find it funny when it's my very, very friends who don't work in media or who just have normal jobs. And it'll be like two months later, they'll be like, have you heard about it? And I'm like, guys. That's funny. We've moved on. It's quite quaint, you know? But those people probably have a happier existence in the world. Totally, absolutely. 100%. I don't have any friends like that, so I don't know what to do. Yeah, it's very refreshing to spend time in their company. How did you celebrate the Jubilee? I would like to just know. I didn't. Because I didn't see you on the back of the bus with Blondie and Kate Moss, and I was a little bit like... Did you not? That was me in the long wig next to Kate Moss. No. First of all, I'm a Republican, so I was never going to engage with it in any way. Why is that so funny? I didn't even know you guys had Republicans over there. Yeah, that's what I, yeah. I also didn't, I didn't even know what Jubilee was until this year for some reason. No, but a Republican in the British sense means that I don't believe the monarchy should be a thing. I think it should be a bullet. She's a lefty fruitcake is what she's saying, but the word means something different. The thing is, I'm actually like... not that lefty but i just like i just don't like the royal family i don't think they should be no the royal family is truly insane and as a person who absolutely salivates over british culture if prince andrew had been born first he would be the future king and he's like what sorry an alleged i have to say alleged he's like an alleged pedophile like that's it's the most insane like and i just find it really jarring

I just don't like what they're about. So I didn't engage in any of the... So who do you think, quickly, sidebar, who do you think killed Epstein? I actually, like, again, I don't know legally where I stand on this. I just want to be clear. I think it would have been a politician. I think it would have been an American politician. Personally, my money is on the Clintons. So you are a Republican. Got it. Yeah, yeah, interesting. You're going to go after... What about the emails? What about the emails? Lock her up. Hillary definitely had Epstein killed for sure. And also the weather was like shit. That was kind of the main reason why I didn't partake. You guys are just all getting drunk during the day. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, you know, I went for dinner with friends. Like I really didn't go to like any of the street parter. And it's just, and also like getting day drunk in Britain is like, it's just quite a grim. thing it's not like being like i've known southern spain or in italy and it's just like beautiful warm like london is quite like an ugly city day drinking in london is more like pissing in the street kind of vibe like kicking a pigeon i remember last year during the euro so it was like a football match um and during the final and england had somehow scraped their way to the final and i kind of wasn't really thinking so i made plans to go and meet friends in central london And I was, like, wearing, like, you know, I was going to the Groucho Club. I was wearing, like, a nice dress. We just talked about the Groucho. Yeah, it's really nice. And I thought I was going to get attacked. I had to have a friend pick me up in his car later that evening. At, like, 7 p.m. because the vibe was so weird in central London and so violent. And honestly, he, like, often I was like, oh, I'm going to, I'll get the tube to you. And he was like, no, I think I should come pick you up. And he, like, missed the start of the final of the match because it was so weird. Britons don't really know how to celebrate or be happy. There's just all this underlying anger, and it all just comes out during situations like this. Does alcohol help that or hurt it? Yeah, it really doesn't help. We do not know how to drink. I can't wait. I think you need to come visit us in the good old U.S. of A.

We'll go down to where I'm from, the American South. We'll take you to a college football game, and we'll show you how it's supposed to be done. I don't know that I'd feel that comfortable in the South. Well, Atlanta you would. It's Black Hollywood. Okay. Okay, so your hometown in London, your friend said, it's not safe for you to take the tube. I have to literally extract you from the city. But going to a high school football game, it seems dangerous to you. Okay, I take... The moral of the story is it's not safe for women anywhere. Yeah, basically. No, I take your point. No, I mean, I want to come to LA. A friend of mine, one of my best friends moved there. We like to take, we like to kind of take our British visitors for a night on the town. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'll... give you guys a story. Okay. When I get back to London, like LA, thank you so much. It was so sweet. No, there's no way you'll come to LA without a sponsored content opportunity that will have to require, that will require posting while on us soil. Not true. You're like massively overstating. No, I'm just, I'm just giving you a hard time because I, you know, I'm a little bit jealous because I see you doing some nice blue chip fashion stuff. Yeah. You know, that's the only, that's the only stuff that I do, but I basically do stuff where I'm like, is this brand cool enough that I would kind of do it for free, but also they're paying me. No, I love, I think honestly, you and Raven are in some ways the archetype. I think you, because, because I think the thing with men specifically, and Jason does this well too, is that like, there's a prerequisite that you have to have something going on. Yeah. Like a male influencer is like the corniest shit on earth. Like you have to have something going on with women. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, but you are the, you are the exception to the rule because you actually have stuff to do. So when people are like, Oh, I like her outfit. oh, there's other shit to buy because she actually does something. You're a person of substance. Yeah, it's not a new cookware line that you didn't research or a Korean skincare brand. I literally can't fucking cook. I have actually been approached to do cookery-related stuff, and I was like, have you looked like all I do is I live off takeaways? It would be so inauthentic. I can't do... You know how to open a can of beans, though, don't you? Barely. Actually, when I moved to the flat, I had to stab my way into a tin can of...

something because i don't have the right equipment like i'm just abysmal in the kitchen well i before before we wrap up i know that you're in the throes of home renovations over there yeah and you know it's something that i am unfortunately looking down the barrel of that gun jace has been through it many times it's just so fucking shit have you done it before it's just so shit look i'm not complaining in the sense that i feel very fortunate to have like let's have all the caveats i feel very fortunate to have a place of my own and i feel fortunate it's just People, and I've actually written an article about this coming out soon, people don't make a distinction between renovating and decorating. Like decorating is fun. That's like paint swatches and buying a nice lamp and buying a nice sofa. That is great. Renovating is like arguing with a builder about what weight of artificial slate tiles. to use on your roof so that it's both water resistant but also doesn't cave in on you whilst you see like nobody wants to have that conversation that's the conversation i'm having a lot now but i'm hiring a project manager that's what i've decided smart I was going to say Jason's available, but he doesn't really know kind of the codes over there, so that would be a little challenging. No, I mean, obviously it's a huge pain in the ass, especially if you're living in the house while it's being renovated. I'm going to have to move out for a couple of months once it's done. You're just going to go down to Ibiza and kind of reset? No, I wish. I'm going to move back home with my parents for a couple of months because they actually don't live that far from me. I can't wait for the content to arise from this. There's going to be some articles written. I live with my parents as an adult while my house is being renovated. Here's what happens. No, they're actually very, um, they're very chilled. We, and we actually get along pretty well. So, but it's, it's, um, yeah, that's, I just decided to, cause I don't have like a shit ton of money to, to do it. Like I'm not somebody who has like an endless budget, but I also realized it's been 18 months I've been living here and I've just been like struggling and floundering and being like ripped off by rogue, rogue builders.

I need to hire someone who knows how to do this. It's like doing your accounting. I have an accountant because that isn't my forte. The only skill I really have is writing. I get it. I'm looking for a skill as we speak. Spending money doesn't count as a skill. That's right. Thank you for joining us. It was an absolute pleasure. We love crossing the pond. fan of your work, a known fan of your work, and the newest book, which is a Sunday Times bestseller, of course. We Need to Talk About Money is in stores everywhere now, wherever you buy books, even in America. Yeah, pretty much. You can get it with Amazon. We don't have a Waterstones here, unfortunately, but you can still. You've got Barnes and Nobles, whatever it is. And when you come to LA, let us know and we'll take you out for a nice meal. Our treat on the How Long Gone Platinum American Express card. That's very nice. Thanks, guys. This has been fun. Of course. We'll see you later. And when we come to London, I'll text you and you'll say... I will ignore your messages. Have fun. Yeah, exactly. Otega, I'm in your city. All right, bring her an umbrella. It rains a lot. I'm so sorry. I was having a dramatic time. You still around. I'm in your city. Full well, you just touched down in LA. I'm in your city. All right. All right. That'll be fun for everybody. All right, guys. We'll talk soon. Toodaloo. You don't do that. What are you talking shit for? Thank you.