530. - Coco Mellors

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? We're back, baby. I just got to Los Angeles a few hours ago, after a nice blue eye from JFK to LAX, the sun is shining. My car looks like, you know, it's from the 1800s. It's so dusty. Jason, I saw Jason this morning when I picked it up, but we didn't really get into it. How are you feeling, big dog? Oh, me? Not good. Not good at all. Why? I don't know. I've just been a little down ever since I got back. It usually takes me like a week to just get back. Otherwise, I wake up at like 2 a.m. every day. And then I just kind of crash around 3 p.m., 2, 3 p.m. Sure, sure. So it's got me all fucked up. And, you know, just all the little minutia of getting back on track and laundry and cleaning and unboxing electric bikes and, you know. All the little things that you have to do. Yeah, you design all of your life so you can wake up and I'm going to work out and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and be good and responsible and do all the things I need to do, but I can't.

I can't do that yet. I understand. No, I know. So I've been writing instead. I mean, yeah, great. You're the only person. I've been writing and eating. I was going to say you're the only person on earth who writes as a form of procrastination versus doing anything but writing. So you have that going for you. I don't know. I haven't been able to figure out how to do fitness and work. at the same time i can i can do one or the other really well no don't yeah i mean you don't want to be the guy like rolling calls on the treadmill you know what i'm saying like that that person does know does exist but i mean made some home improvements while i was gone so i got to see those when i when i got back which was nice you made some or you paid for some oh paid for no no i didn't make any but just you know you know just changed up a few things you know switched up some stuff in the in the backyard uh got rid of some stuff changed up a few things switched it up got rid of some stuff this could this be any more vague we pulled out a deck I mean, what are you going to say? There was like a weird deck in the back of the house, and we removed it. I want you to tell me exactly what you did. You brought it up. Clearly, you want to talk about it. That's all we really did. I mean, but it was kind of a whole thing because, you know. It's like pulling weeds with you, Chris. No, no. I just, I mean, I don't think home improvements are that exciting to talk about, but I was just, you know, it was nice to come home and everything be done. That's the beauty of great designers and contractors. that apparently most people have a hard time finding so i'm just feeling blessed yeah no it is it is not it is not easy especially you know the mortgage percent the uh the whatchamacall interest rate jason is that what you're looking for interest rate damn you really are not the house The house monies, all the money they use for the houses. You really are suffering. You really are suffering. Is the news of Britney Spears' divorce kind of shaking you? It seems like it's knocked you off your axis a little bit. It does. That was not even a real marriage. Do not do that. Do not do that. Don't shit on her love. You don't know what she's going through. Damn, don't shit on my love. New mod son single out in October. I guess I just have a regular old...

malaise i don't i don't know if it's depressed it's not depression it's more of just oh you're really dramatic you know it's because you were on a pointless well i guess it was a work trip but you know after i've been having headaches after a while maybe i have limes uh you know again you're too broke for limes and i think that i i think that it could be it could just be the return but i i've the exact opposite happens to me i get pumped up upon return like i'm re-energized because of like my habits being back and available to me no i'm gonna say i yeah you know that that does happen to me and i get re-energized except the energizing can only go so far yeah sure when you wake up at 2 a.m every day well especially in la when it's like you know there's no no people walking by you know the biggest task you have to do every day is to walk your dog it's not it's not the most exciting thing which i get from 4 a.m to 6 30 is Oof, deep work hours, baby. I'm pumping. I don't know. I'm surprised you're that fucked up by that. It takes me a couple days, but then I'm kind of like, I still get up at like 4.30 or 5, and it's kind of fine. 2 is insane. I mean, it's only been a couple days. Yeah, I know. When you really think about it. Yeah, I know, I know. Hey, it takes a long time to... To turn a big boat around, as they say, right? Yeah, that's what they say down there in Orange County when they talk about boats. That's the kind of thing they say. I told you this, but I got a facial yesterday before I hit the airport last night, which was nice. Did you get his name? Yeah, Raquel. I wasn't used to the... There was this kind of dome-like apparatus that she put over my face, and then... Some sort of oxygenated air blew onto my face, and there's also a lot of red light. I had little goggles on like I was going to a tanning booth. Okay. So just to be clear, you got domed at your facial. I got domed at my facial, but I felt like... Okay. I felt a little... Moments before your facial, you were domed. And how did it make you feel? I was a little bit claustrophobic.

Honestly, I had to kind of breathe through it because I knew I wasn't trapped. It wasn't like they put a NASA style helmet on me or anything. But it just felt like she told me exactly what was going to happen. You know what I mean? She walked me through it. And I was like, yeah, whatever. Nothing can prepare you for how it feels to get dumped. Exactly. You can warn me all day long. It's like when you're watching Hollywood movie magic, Harrison Ford getting the mold. cast of his entire head and he's got two straws coming out of his nostril breathing through it and you're like yeah just sit here it's fine and uh You also can't breathe, so deal with that. Yeah, that's the way. You could die. Deal with that. I felt fine, but I had to really concentrate on my breathing like I was in yoga to kind of get myself through the initial panic because I kind of forget that I have these claustrophobic tips. I don't really like small European elevators. I get a little funny in those situations, but I wasn't expecting that in Tribeca yesterday. I'll tell you that. Tribeca is the only place where you'll have an elevator, right? It's usually walk-ups? No, yeah, no. Tribeca, I was watching Real Housewives of New York City, and one of the housewives tried to shade another woman, being like, oh, Tribeca, this is like an up-and-coming neighborhood. It's cool. And the woman was like... Bitch, this neighborhood is here. It's here right now. This is the most expensive neighborhood in Manhattan. It was a really nice exchange. Is it really the most expensive compared to the uppers? Yeah, maybe at this point. It's either that or honestly, it might even be like Brooklyn Heights or something is as expensive because it's just where people, you know, it's like where rich people want to live. That's what dictates it more than anything. I think so. Sure. I mean, look. She's in real estate, this character on Real Housewives, so I'm sure she knows what she's talking about. Of course, of course. I mean, she's not a hobbyist like you. It's her full-time job, but I still am able to find trust. I'm able to find trust. I don't say yes to every job. I have to love the property before I do anything. Of course. You're like an A&R guy. I have to love the music. You can't just have the looks.

And kind of the pedigree. I wish every agent was like me, but they're not. I just have to have songs. I'm not able to separate the art from the artiste. I did watch six more episodes. So get on the plane this morning. I'm sitting next to Hunter Schaefer in Delta One. Hell yeah. I was like, oh. And Hunter's skin looking translucent. Just poreless. Beautiful. Beautiful. What else is new? Prada backpack, of course, since she is the face of Prada. But she slept the whole time while I was glued to my television because I've been sucked into the Yellowstone Vortex thanks to Delta's entertainment portal. Oh, my God. Because the Internet didn't work. They were like, oh, Internet's not going to work on the plane. So I had four and a half hours during the middle of the day where I wanted to be emailing. So that's why you never texted me back. Yeah, because I couldn't. I wasn't like you, just ignoring it. I was actually unable to text. So I had to watch six more episodes of Yellowstone. I'm into season. I was like, oh, he's not going to treat me like another one of his little thoughts, thinking it's okay. He doesn't have to write back. Sorry. Yo, sorry. I've been busy. It's just been crazy lately. I'm different. It's been crazy. It's been fucking crazy. You know how it is. But yeah, I'm... And unfortunately, it's reignited my kind of... I'm taking a hundredth look at recalibrating my entire wardrobe to go double RL mode. You know, to get that kind of cowboy ranch hand look. But it's very violent, which I wasn't totally expecting. But I get why people like the show. It's pretty good. It's a little melodramatic overall, I think. There's absolutely not a moment of brevity or a laugh. like not once it's just like people dying and problems which is kind of i don't think that's a it's a soap opera necessarily a realistic portrayal of anything yeah yeah no you're right you're right there's there's enough hot people there are enough hot people yeah the guy who plays like the young cowboy casey is is very hot i don't know who he looks like he like maybe dated kirsten dunst or something

But I don't know what his real name is. Did you watch it? No, I did not. I mean, I probably watched one or two episodes just to make sure. Luke Grimes. Luke Grimes is the guy's name. Yeah, he looks good. He looks like he could be in Kings of Leon. Literally. We do have a guest today. I don't believe she's on Yellowstone, but we can ask her. Coco Mellors is her name. Her book is called Cleopatra and Frankenstein. It's a big hit this summer. Actually, she has a second book coming out very soon, like the top of next year. Um, so we will get into that with her, but also, uh, I think she's, I mean, I'm sure now because the writer's strike, it's not the case, but she's deep in development for the TV series, the TV version of Cleopatra and Frankenstein as well. Um, so I would love to hear about her experience. I plan on asking her if, if the, if any of the strikes have affected that at all. Yeah, I'm planning to, yeah. Do you miss the free Cheez-Its or are you able to kind of get it done at home on your own? I don't even know if, if they got that far. And, and do we, do you think, do you think, I think that her name is, It's such a classic kind of British it girl name, isn't it? Like it's a real kind of... Yeah, it is. No, it's a great name. I mean, Coco is like a... I mean, obviously, I would guess it's short for something, but it does feel like Chloe. It's a hot girl name. Like you've never met. You know what I mean? You don't really see a dog Chloe. Who's the British girl that was like friends with... With everyone, and her dad ran the festivals. I forgot her name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Geldof. Pixie Geldof? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a Peaches Geldof kind of name, the Coco Melors. Let's give Coco a buzz and see what's gone. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world,

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen.

What's going on? For some reason, I knew you were British, but I didn't expect that accent to come out of you. Does that happen to you, or am I just ignorant? No. Well, you might be ignorant. I have no idea. I don't know you. But I've been in America since I was 15, so that's like 19 years. And I think I probably understood that being English was a valuable currency here, and I just held on to my accent. I refused to let it go. No, that's nice. I wish I would have done the same with my southern accent, but it's cooler now than it was when I had it, and I didn't have the foresight that you have to kind of hold on. Well, you know, Britain has a complicated history, too, as does the South. Damn, I guess that's true. I'm not even worried about the complicated history. I think at a certain point, it was like, you sound dumb, and now it's kind of like, thanks to film and television, it's considered cool-ish in certain circles, I think. You sound dumb and hot. Yeah, exactly. I want to be dumb and hot. Don't we all? I actually think being British is the complete opposite, where people assume what you're saying is much more intelligent than it actually is. And it really helped my fear of public speaking. I would think they're not even listening to you. They're just hearing the accent. It doesn't matter what you say. I would repeat it to myself like a mantra. It does go really far here. So talking with your accent is like bumper bowling. It's a beautiful safety net. It exactly is. Yeah, I think you're right, though. I think that it does make everyone kind of stand up and listen a little. You know, they take it a little more seriously. It holds a little more weight, let's say. Yes, I hope so. Not as much as Australian, but yeah. I'm not going to comment on that. It's okay. Your silence is deafening, Coco. I have an American intonation because it's impossible after being here for so many years not to have been in some ways, you know, tainted by the Americans. People do often assume I am Australian and the sort of tight-lipped smile that I give when I'm like, no, British. No. No. No, no. You're going to Queenie. Point of contention. No. Wow, the way you said no, no was invigorating. When I first moved to America, I was really shy. I was 15 and my accent was so posh.

When I said my name, I couldn't open my mouth fully, so I would say QQ, like two of the letter Q instead of Coco. No. Okay, so they're like, damn, did we go to high school with Bjork? Yeah, yeah. It does sound like Bjork. Yeah, that really does. That's a flattering comparison. Is your name Courtney, or is Coco a nickname, though, right, or no? I'm sorry, that's even worse than being accused of being Australian. My name is not Courtney. Oh, okay. I've only in America, and I'm sure you know this, Coco is the only Cocos I know. It is a nickname. No one is birth named that. Lots of dogs called Coco. You like that? Okay, fair. All right, fine. Yeah, lots of dogs. I've met many in my time. I do when people are like, oh, yeah, like I have a niece called Coco. I do always follow up like, but is she really? Is she really called Coco? Or is it like Courtney, Catherine, whatever? Oh, Catherine. I didn't think about the Catherine. Yeah, that's another one, too. Yeah. Okay, so yours... Okay, fine. Look, I'm sorry. I didn't know I was dealing with 100% uncut raw cocoa. Genuine, original cocoa. But your first and last name are your real birth names, correct? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Damn, that's cool. Very cool. I mean, I'm only asking because your name is so... I don't know. Of an author? In a way, it's almost, your name is too perfect to be real, I guess I should say. Well, my surname or last name is not that useful for American because it's pronounced Mellors in British because Americans do that post-vocalic R that's very R. It's Mellors in American. And when I go back to England, and as I said, I'm like Coco Mellors. And when I go back to England, they're like, who the fuck do you think you are? You're Mellors. Yeah, I guess I see that. I do see the difference there, even though it's minor. I can hear it. I can tell how that would change people's opinions. That's the one instance where the British version sounds a little bit more pedestrian and the English version sounds a little bit more regal, perhaps. Yes, because Mellors, it rhymes with smellers, and then Coco, obviously, you only have to drop the last letter, and you have a great nickname. Damn. Oh. I would have never thought of that. I know. Not that I want to start that.

Well, you're sober now, but that means you've danced with countertop drugs before. We talked about this on the last episode, drugs that you do on a counter. I've never heard the phrase countertop drug. It was Stuart Copeland, the drummer of the police, our guest before you. He said he referred to a session he was having and said countertop drugs. And Jason and I both. Wrote that down in our notebooks. It's really good. I love it. I've had dry goods before, like you dabble in the dry goods. I've never heard that either. Yeah, I like that as well. Yeah, that's really, British people have such great names for drugs and especially cocaine, but countertop, tabletop, either of those really, really puts it home, really sends the message. British people have a lovely, I mean, obviously I love British people and I am one of them, but like I was back in London last week and my friend was talking about having a nervy B. A nervous breakdown. Oh, no. She was like... Nervy B? Nervy B? Hell no. Hell no. I loved taking something, obviously, from Africa. She was genuinely having a nervous breakdown. She was hospitalized. It was so difficult to do. Taking something so truly horrifying and making it so cute. The other thing she described it as was a wobbly. You know, I just threw a little wobbly. Wow. I like wobbly. I like wobbly. Yeah. Okay, is your friend like a Gen Z type of person, or is she a full-grown adult? No, no, no. She's a millennial woman. She was suffering from postpartum psychosis. Incredibly difficult to go through. Postpartum psychosis referred to as nervy B? A wobbly or a nervy B. That's sick. that's exactly the british mentality and that is because we were blitzed in the war and when you are from a country or a city that has been bombed i think you just learn to downplay everything it's like the city's being bombed but it's just a wobbly and we're all gonna go to work tomorrow yeah yeah yeah i mean I think that also your people love to kind of talk about history. Our history here isn't quite as good. I think because you still have the monarchy and the whole thing, it comes up a lot more. I've never understood all of the royal stuff. Well, they're not hot enough. That's the problem.

Like once Diana dies, there's nobody out. If there's nobody you want to fuck, it's hard to pay attention. You know what I mean? Definitely. And I would say not just hotness. It's a kind of charisma. Like Diana had charisma. You know, it's like. You're right. I would say actually Harry has charisma. I think like, but they all leave. You know, the ones that are cool, they leave the family. Yeah, you have. But I just, yeah, charisma. Yeah, you're right. It's a little boring and like a little, I mean, it just feels like the last, like. in america we would want like the reason i think part of the reason barack obama was so popular is that he was kind of like had a sense of humor and smoked cigarettes and would like do the whole thing whereas i don't think that flies i don't think if like if like you know if if the prince is making jokes and stuff people don't really want that from him no that's the whole point of the royal family is going to scrub out any sense of individualism or personality because you're just a figurehead And living in a time of celebrity, we don't want that. We want our royal family to be like celebrities. Yes. I want my politicians to be like celebrities, too. That's why I voted for Donald Trump in 2020. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Because you could have a beer with him. Yes. You want to talk about charisma? Oh, baby. That is true. That is undeniable. Now that we've learned that Obama has sex with men in his imagination. That's true. Even cooler, right? Yeah. It's opened up a whole new. Can you imagine all the LGBTQ plus? Shows he's developing at Netflix now, Jason. It's a whole new world for him. It's opening doors everywhere you look. Only in dreams. I'm going to try to put that Weezer song on the end now. Okay, Coco, when you saw recently on an episode of And Just Like That where Carrie Bradshaw was reading a book. Was that did that feel better than than publishing day or when you were on the New York Times bestseller list? I wasn't on the New York Times bestseller list. Thanks for bringing that up. As soon as this episode goes up, sweetheart, you'll be there. I don't think you're not ready for that. I hope your publishers has shipped extra copies to the local Barnes and Noble for the how long gone. Get the printing press on the horn. They are ready. Definitely. I mean, it was the pinnacle of my entire life. Obviously, you know, I just.

Like, you could be long-listed for a Pulitzer, or you could be picked, and you could be held in the hands of Sarah Jessica Parker. And it's like, I know which I would pick, and I lived it. Well, I'll say, I think it's possible that being held in the hands of Sarah Jessica Parker in 2023 could sell more books. That's honestly possible. I wish she had held up the cover a little more. I wish she had caused a little more full frontal coverage. I bet you do, Coco. Full frontal. I wanted full frontal in SJP, goddammit. I mean, of course, nothing's perfect. There's always a fly in the champagne in some way. If there could have been an addition to the dialogue, like, wow, this is always incredible. It's just something. But, yeah, it was an amazing moment. I mean, I really... This is the best book I've ever read. This is the best book I've ever read. At least she didn't say it was bad. No. Yeah, that could have been. Or even if she had conveyed it with her facial expression by grimacing or looking away in disgust, I think, that she, like, touched her head lightly to her heart at one point, which I consider to be a seal of approval. Yeah, I would read into it that way as well if I was the author of the book. So I totally get that. Is the... Did you have any warning that this was coming or does this just happen? You do. I did. Well, like a year ago, the publicist, the prop stylist reached out to my publicist and asked for a copy of the book. But then she was seen carrying a different book in season one. So I just assumed I didn't get picked. Oh, and so I just I dream die along with so many others. And then it was resurrected because I had a I didn't I hadn't watched that episode yet. Not as any kind of statement. I do watch it every single week, but I was in London and it's like annoying to work out the logins and a reader message me saying, Oh my God, I saw your book. And I assumed it would just be in the background, like on a bookshelf, but it's in the opening sort of 10 seconds of the episode. So that's a whole different, obviously that's a whole different ball game than being in the background. Of course. Being held to Carrie's bosom. Oh man. I know. We've dreamed of that. No, her hand was lightly grazing her chest. It was the book itself.

she's like yeah it's crazy carrie was grabbing her tits holding my book it was wild i don't know clutch it to her chest let me be clear you know would have been a sign of real but i i mean it was an amazing moment just because it is i think that's the only i mean not maybe i'm just like that which obviously has its whole discourse around it but sex in the city the original was for me like such a seminal show and i used to be embarrassed to say that i remember i had like the box set it was a pink swede book basically all the dvds and my mom had bought it for me with like her first ever bonus and my ex-boyfriend like opened my drawer and saw it and made fun of me and i was like oh yeah like i don't even really like it like my mom watches it well that's why that's why he's an ex sweetie that's why he's an ex exactly and i think the show is i mean it's incredibly well written the original show it's amazing i mean emily nussbaum has an amazing article in the new yorker talking about why it was so groundbreaking just in terms of the dialogue And I feel like I learned so much from watching it. I will always stand by Sex and the City. So you're saying that Sex and the City is better than in Just Like That? I think I wouldn't be alone in saying that. Controversial, but whatever you want to do. I actually had the same box set. My brother stole it from Barnes & Noble. And one time he also stole a martini kit. And we didn't know what martinis were or anything like that. And my mom walked in on my friend and I trying to make martinis while watching Sex and the City, and she just, like, started crying, basically. Why would she start crying? Of all the things you could walk in on two teenage boys doing together, I would say that is the most wholesome I can imagine. No, that's because watching two teenage boys make martinis in the Sex and the City glass is, like, that's more gay than them jerking each other off, and she was probably shocked. It was more of, like, she was mad about the underage drinking part, but... hope so. My mom has no problem with gay people, and neither do I. The latent homophobia is probably the part that I would be concerned about. It's a different time. That seems like a valid parental concern. A couple dudes who are normally watching Jackass or something like that, maybe a skate video, and then suddenly it's Cosmos and Sex and the City, and they're like, what's going on? It could be a lot worse.

with your mom I would cry from happiness walking in to see that it's a different time I mean depending on your age I guess with the drinking but I would be so delighted Coco it was a different time it was a different time I never realized that it was actually I always thought it was like critically acclaimed and kind of beloved but I guess there was a time where it wasn't because I guess in the last five to ten years it's been romanticized and like exalted to like a new level of like classic television but I didn't realize when it first came out, or even the first couple seasons or whatever, it wasn't respected in the same way? No, no, no. I mean, it was censured and scorned, and it was criticized for so many things. Many people said it was women talking like gay men and not talking like women, or as with anything that deals with women's issues, it was always seen as somehow less than or facile in comparison to Mad Men or The Sopranos. Anything that deals with violence is seen as having weight gravity, and anything that deals with sex is seen as... levity or light or unnecessary damn that's that's actually that's true i was just talking to jason before because i don't like to watch prestige television but when you're on the plane you don't have much of a choice and i was watching uh yellowstone the last couple flights but it's just so violent and they don't smile at all it's crazy how serious it is all the time like the whole thing At a certain point, I'm like, this is good, but you've got to relax, guys. You can smile through that violence. Exactly. When you're killing someone for killing someone, you need to be happy about it. Let's see a little cheer on the face. A machete is, after all, in the very shape of a smile. So perhaps they should be taking notes from that. Sham. Well, they're using guns, but I like where your head's at. Oh. Well, a gun is just in the shape of a penis. So what can you do about that? Damn. I never thought about a gun being in the shape of a penis, but I guess, I guess you're right. I guess you're right. I've never thought of it. I guess you're right. Yeah. So you, you were just in London and you were also, were you on a little bit of an Italian holiday? Is that true? I was, yes. I wasn't on an Italian holiday. In this economy? We could tell, I could tell by looking at you that you go on Italian holidays and that's a, that's a compliment. I will take it as well. This was my first, like,

real sojourn to southern italy like doing the thing where i remember like every summer in new york i would just be like every fucking person is in italy and now yeah this year i finally became one of them what did you think because jason i hate it but i'm sure you loved it i mean obviously i love how would you hate it there's a lot of reasons there's a lot of reasons hate is a strong word i i think that i i we we talk about a lot on the show and it i think it's a i think it's partly the difference between men and women a little bit. I think men are less interested in that level of relaxation than women. Interesting. I think my husband really enjoyed himself, and he was pretty relaxed, I would say. He was pretty relaxed. You want to be working? Is that the issue? I think that's an American thing. I find it boring. I just find all that kind of stuff a little boring after a couple days, but I also... like obviously it's nice like the setting is beautiful or whatever but i just don't know how much beaching and we just love america that's the damn thing what do you want to do on your like do you like because i would say sometimes my husband's most of this like i always think he's a bit like a kind of puppy who needs to be like run and have activities and he'd love to like catch a brisbee in his mouth you know like i okay i read a book a day when i'm on holiday and all i want to do is just lie in the sun and read and for me that is heaven and i can do that days days on end without growing are you single i understand that stuff like i can understand wanting activities like i'm not interested in my my life is active you know when i go on holiday i don't want an activity other than maybe eating well i don't want to go i don't want to go on like a zipline or like i mean or like a okay so you just want to go read a book a day maybe take a nap at the pool have a long lunch but you don't you're not like all right And at 11.45, we're going to go to the museum. And at 12.15, we're going to go. There's this old tree that I wanted to check out. And then, you know, it's not like that. If I'm not seeing an old tree, I won't go. You know, that for me is true. Cancel the flights. Cancel the flights. I looked on Google Maps. There's no trees anywhere near the hotel. We can't go there. For me, those are two very different things, though. Like, I have city holidays, and they're not really holidays. Like, that's true.

travel that goes under like and that's like culture and you're going to museums and like you're doing a million things every day and then there are like holes summer holes where you are just like a lizard in the sun and you do not move and your heart rate flows to what could be a dangerously low level and you're so relaxed you're practically dead and that's what I'm looking for Coco you get it Coco, you summed it up perfectly. I think you did a great job with that. Coco said, I want to feel like... I mean, that level of relaxation is... I don't know if I'm... Do you not look at your phone and shit? Are you texting and responding? No. Not interested. Don't want to. Don't want to update people. Throw the phone in the seat. Well, I saw a lot of pictures of you and your husband looking tan and relaxed and good. But I posted them afterwards. when i got back when i was in london okay okay touche you're a pro god damn it well you don't you don't want the super fans to know what hotels you're at at that given moment you know what i mean oh yeah you know how these lit chicks be they're crazy they'll show up at your hotel you're doxable coco i just had a few questions about the ending if you have a moment sorry i'm really i don't mean to bother you i know i'm sorry i'm really sorry but it's the complete opposite if i see someone reading my book in public i bother them like i get so excited that they get nervous and back away from me I'm like, how did you find the book? Are you enjoying it? Was it recommended to you by a friend? Did you get it from an ad? Please leave me alone. Please leave me alone. Did you, so I also, I've never asked anybody this, I guess, now that I realize it, but is it like, has the book been on one of those like Reese Witherspoon, like one of those reading lists that like a celebrity makes? No, I actually. Because I feel like those give a real bump now. Yeah, they really do. No, it wasn't actually. I mean, it didn't have a very traditional publishing. um, a cent in many ways because, you know, I sold it for very little money. Very little money. I couldn't sell it. I couldn't sell it for a really long time. You know, I got rejected by every single publisher that it got submitted to. So then when it eventually did sell, so I rewrote the whole book, the two editors that bought it, one in the UK, one in the US.

knew that no one else wanted it. It's pretty cool that you're like, yeah, I didn't sell, then I rewrote it, and you know what? Things change. Yeah. When you say rewrote it, though, are we talking stripped it down to the studs, or are we talking reworked? I mean, it didn't have a plot. And I think some people would argue it still doesn't have a plot, but I think it has a ginormous plot. I don't know what people are talking about, but it definitely didn't have cause and reaction. Characters would just do things, and there was no reason why. And then because, you know, the structure of the novel is that it centers around a couple and then there's a second layer of characters. I just had these characters. They would just go for hundreds of pages. We wouldn't see the central couple for that entire period of the book, which didn't bother me. But it's really frustrating if you're a reader and you're like invested in this relationship. It didn't bother me. The book was originally a thousand pages, so it was no big deal. It was like, you know, you could kind of go on a page turner. You could go in whatever direction you want. really don't read the plot i just read the language and vibes so but i understand but now i understand that it's not me too actually i think i might be i think i might be with you on that like i mean sometimes i i it's different but i think with something like this particularly like it moves fast and it's interesting and i'm not really getting caught up like i'm invested in the couple you know and like what's gonna happen but the other stuff is kind of just as interesting so i don't mind meandering a little bit is that happy to hear and that I think but that's because I restructured the book so that hopefully you're never meandering for too long I think like you can challenge a reader but you can really test the reader's patience and I think that's what I had done in the original version I tried to sell but then when it came out I mean I'm not sure there was just a confluence of events mostly in the UK mostly around social media as far as I can tell and I got some good press early on and it was on a billboard which was really cool and

And somehow just word of mouth, like the most old fashioned form of marketing. It's just people reading the book and telling their friends about it. I think that really works with books, maybe more than anything else in this day and age, like the word of mouth. I mean, I think two things with books that are interesting is like how much a cover can make it like the cover art. It's insane. Like, I don't know if people really realize like how that people will buy it just to signify that they have it. You know, it doesn't, they don't even read it. It doesn't matter. It's like they'll carry it around like a little clutch. I don't mind. Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. Coco, of the different regional editions, which cover is the best, in your opinion? The UK cover, oh my God, by far, by far. And I've really noticed that every foreign territory that has used the UK cover has had a lot of success. and it's a harder sell when they get a new like the french cover is gorgeous and very chic but i i don't know it's doing really well in italy where they use the same cover and i think it's just because it got um you know it's like what's that thing they say in marketing if you see something five times you automatically buy it that's why people spend so much and so that cover because it was on social media a lot like that familiarity people will just pick it up you know they just it doesn't really matter if they think they'll like yeah no i think that i'm meant to i'm meant to own this yeah i mean i saw it i think that's that's honestly kind of what happened to me to an extent like i just kept seeing it and then my girlfriend brought it home and then she read it and then I read, you know what I mean? It's kind of like that kind of thing where it's like, I didn't, it just, it's like in your life. You don't know, you don't know why, but you've seen it and heard about it enough where you're like, fuck, I guess I have to read this now. I know, and you'll have to resist. You know, that's sort of what, that's like what you hope. I mean, it's a little, that's what advertising does. You know, at the end of the day, it's like you're sort of brainwashed and you're like, I just have to buy it. It also feels very appropriate for the summer. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's like, if, you know, it feels like,

It feels like that kind of book. I don't want to read it inside when it's snowing, kind of. That doesn't really sound great. It's funny that it's been kind of marketed. There's a term that people use. It's really pretentious, so triple winning, but it's Ivy League Beach Read. So it's like a beach read for people who are smart. Wow, I think you just named my favorite. I didn't know this genre existed, but I think that describes my taste. Yes, or the other one is sophisticated soap opera. like just looking for like a bit of drama and character and like lush emotion but you know yeah with language that is hopefully not really cringe or badly written but i just i just feel like ivy league beach read is a sweet spot for a lot of people like a lot of people it still has to exclude a certain number of of dumb dumbs in the world to make you feel good about yourself and and uh your podcast is described as elite which i wanted to ask you to about well so what is the elite are you guys the ivy league podcast Yeah, we're Ivy League. I dropped out of high school. I think Jason did one semester of community college, so we are Ivy League. The podcast is not for elite people. We are just elite at podcasting, if that makes sense. How do you become elite at podcasting? I'm glad you asked. Getting the 10,000 episodes in, of course, helps you, but... You know, just having a God-given talent of conversation as well as editing, graphic design, marketing, professionalism, influencing. I mean, an amazing team. I just want to thank our team. Put it all together. But, you know. And to top it all off, just such a charming and innate humility that I think is just so. We hear that a lot. We hear the H word a lot. You're not the first to say that. And I'm glad the humility shines through even in situations like this. That's great for you to notice. I don't know. I think we were joking when we started the show about calling it a bi-coastal elite podcast because I live in New York and Jason lives in LA. And, you know, that's kind of where it stemmed from. And then Vogue says that once, you know, six months after you start a podcast and then you don't have a choice anymore. I'm neither bi-coastal or elite. Yes, you have a big tongue in cheek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm bi-coastal and I'm elite in my own mind.

um but i also know that's a lie this is like okay when i started saying the word subtle but pronouncing the b as a joke with my sister so we would say subtle and then it started out as kind of a joke and now i can't say it without pronouncing the b unfortunately unfortunately that happens to me a lot with slang that is for teenagers yeah and i say it and you're being facetious and then slowly it's actually just how you talk that's right creeps into my vernacular when i'm talking to my parents you know and they don't know what i mean it's it's a problem for me yeah i have that with certain words like i can't say the word i'm gonna no i have to do it this way cringe i have to pronounce it like a little hotel bell being wrong like I can't say the word. Interesting, Coco. Very interesting. Coco, have you dabbled in the theater at all or dramatic arts? No. No? No, I haven't. I just have a love of the English language. Sure. No, no, no, of course. And by English, you mean English. No, no, no. You have fun with it. You play around with it. Yeah, you're playing with it. No, I mean, there's just some words where you're like, I cannot say this word with a straight face. It is just too... I mean, I guess cringe is one word for it, but sometimes the word is just, just the way it comes out of your mouth makes you feel rotten and you just have to change the way it sounds in order to speak, you know? Well, you just want to show a level of self-awareness. Like as I'm saying it, I'm in, I know that it's a kind of silly word, you know? And so I just want to show, like I have it with triggered. Like I also said it was like triggered. Like I just see them as like, my mind are like little bells that get pushed and like. I just always want to show that I know that there's something a bit trill and silly almost about an overuse of a word I think I'm always aware of. Okay, well, do you ever feel like you're a little bit of, I guess it's a pet peeve when you hear lazy lyrics or lazy writing, like turns of phrase, like walking and talking and money and honey and missing and kissing and things like that? These are not things that I hear very often. Are they things that you hear often?

Just more of a lyric thing. I'm like, those are just rhymes. It's more of a lyric. It's lyrical. I'm like, miss it and kiss it. Just sort of like when you think about, you know, what's a word that rhymes with money? Okay, honey. All right, cool. We got it. Next word, you know, seven and heaven. You're like, I've never heard this shit in my life, you dumb American. What the fuck are you talking about? No, I know exactly what you're talking about. No, they're phrases that grow threadbare from overuse and they feel cheap as a result. And I think, you know, my teacher was Martin Amos when I was in my master's program. And he was an amazing, amazing professor because the level of attention that he paid just to language, like he would say like, you can't say dilapidated hedge because dilapidated comes from, oh, I'm dropping my headphones. Dilapidated comes from the word for stone, lapis. So it has to describe a structural building. Like that level of just... Okay, that's above our pay grade, but I understand where Martin is coming from. And he's qualified, I guess, you know, to kind of say that if he wants to. Do you like that level of rule following, I guess? I like that level of attention. I really do. I don't think that I adhere to it because I don't have... His level of kind of education was so beyond mine. But he would say over and over again that the job of a novelist is to find an original way to say universal things. And when I read books and I find stock phrases, I do think it's a little lazy because I'm like, I don't feel this about people who are not writers because that's not their job. But when you're a writer, the job is to find a way to use language that is fresh and original. And that's the hard work of being a writer. But I think that is the difference between different genres, you know, literary fiction, people. Sometimes do away with these genres for good reason, but the whole point of literary fiction is that you're paying attention to the language just as much as what's happening. The plot is important, but maybe not as important as how something is being described. Whereas in commercial fiction, you're just reading it purely for entertainment. You're just paying attention to what's happening. Coco, you're starting to make me wish I went to school. When I was a teenager, this is all really stupid to me. And now, as a full-grown adult...

I find it interesting and exciting and I like it. I honestly agree. I didn't really like school when I was a teenager because I wasn't well-rounded and I didn't feel good at it. And as an adult, I'm much more interested and much more curious than I was when I was a teenager. Okay, let's not go to grad school. You're successful. You don't have to do that. You found yourself already. I went to grad school. It happened. When you went to grad school, were you in fact searching for yourself or did you need to buy yourself some time or did you really just want to go? That's actually such a good question. No one's ever asked me that. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable.

And they're just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. All of the above in some ways. Yeah. I'm so happy I did it. I did not massively enjoy those years of my life. I went to grad school between 24 and 26, I think. Yeah. And this is NYU? I went to NYU. i i am i that's where i started my novel and i learned so much in that program but while i was in it i got sober in the middle of doing that program so i bottomed out in the middle of it i would say probably like my own insecurities and like feeling of not being good enough and also being hung over i would say three or four days a week every week did not help sure so it got the program got infinitely better when i got sober and i just got and then when i left i just carried on i would take classes in my evenings and got them I don't know if you guys know that. It's a writing school in New York. And technically, I think once you have an MFA, you can teach at it. But no one wanted me to. I didn't get any offers. That's the rules. No one was interested in that. But I really liked having the deadlines and I really liked having the feedback. I think praise and criticism is really essential when you're writing. So I'm really glad I did the MFA, but I wouldn't do it again. I wouldn't want to go back.

It's like being lobsters in a tank trying to climb to the top. Everyone has the same dream and everyone's a little insecure. My question to you is how many people in your program, because it's small. I mean, it's probably what, 15 people, 20 people? I think it was more like 30. It's bigger in NYU. Okay. But yeah, it's relatively small. 30 people. How many of those people are successful now? It depends what you define successful, to be honest. Like published? I'm saying like... successful as a writer, like as, as what they were intending to do? You know what I mean? Or do you think a lot of people were there because it's like, I'm trying to find myself or like, I like this, but like, I don't, you know, I'm not taking it that seriously as a career path. I think it's a very mixed bag. And I think there were some people who left and went right on to do PhDs. And I think in some way they were, they just did the masters as an extension of being a student, you know, and they probably didn't really want to write a novel. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. There are many people in my program who have gone on to be phenomenally successful and celebrated as writers. A lot of them have won really amazing awards. So there's definitely like a good, probably two palmfuls of people like that that I can think of. And then I imagine there are probably others. Two palmfuls? Yes, two palmfuls. To answer your question. A precise amount. And then I think a lot of people are still probably working on their books. And I think, you know, it's like. Well, it takes a long time to write a novel. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is it's really, you're not getting paid to do it most of the time with the first book. There's no real deadline. And then your life, you know, you're working most people and then people start to have children and it's really easy to put it off. And it's also just. You're putting yourself up to be rejected. It's very, very easy to want to put that off. Sure, sure. I'm going to delay this for a little while. I don't want to get destroyed today. There's a sliver of a chance that this will be a success.

And it's easy to push that off and do the washing instead. When I was in the program, I remember the teachers being like, being a writer is being rejected. And I was like, I don't feel like it is. But that's because I wasn't putting my work out there. So I didn't feel very rejected. You guys are so serious. Relax. My mom loves my work. She was the only person reading it. But then I sent it out to agents. And I had agents respond saying no. And then I realized, oh, yeah, it is a lot of rejection. That's what it is. Well, during this era. pre-bottom out are we going to what are we talking about like black and white like where were we going where were we going to bottom out i feel like we could have been bottoming out in the same places that's why i'm asking oh are you sober yeah i am yes yes i bottomed out later in life um compared to you but i just feel like we were haunting some of the same places based on oh i'm sure the book well there were different areas you know so i started going out in new york when i was 15 a mere babe in the woods and that was kind of misshapes rough club sure um dark room let me ask you about that because this we were we were there for that era as well what did you look like because i can't really imagine this version like how different did you look at misshapes or were you still um no i was getting like doing the whole indie sleeves like just having a whole style How indie sleeves were you is what Chris wants to know. Yes. I'm sorry. I should have worded that better. I don't feel like I wasn't wearing the little elastic band around my forehead, like the shoestring tied around my back. I didn't. That's good. That's a 10 out of 10 indie sleeves. I wasn't up there. Yeah. I was at the phase where in some of those Miss Shades pictures, I'm wearing a tank top with a waist belt around it. And I wore a waistcoat. And I had multiple different waistcoats for all these different weeks of having my picture taken. So I loved a tiny waistcoat, which I would say was a huge mistake. And I got the skinny jeans and just like the converse with like, you know, people writing all over it. We all looked bad. That was the point. We talk about this a lot on the show, how that's the ugliest. Like the fact that everything comes back around is inevitable. And we all are aware of that. But there's.

That era, no one. The hottest. Like, Lee Lazark is beautiful. Stunning. Like, unstriking. But every picture is like, damn, that's a crazy-ass outfit. Like, that's really a crazy outfit. Every single outfit is crazy. And the neon and us all wearing American apparel hoodies. And, like, yeah, it was just such an odd, tasteless time. So I definitely really committed to that. And then I would say it was, like, Beatrice. That was the big one that came afterwards. Sure. And then like Paul's Baby Grand and Black Market and like, you know, all the regular sports, you know, to just feel like you're having fun and then hate yourself the next day. Yeah. Yeah. I know all about that. I know all about that. Yeah. I think that that I think that all of those I don't know. I feel like that's it's we talk about this a lot on the show, too. Just how like partying isn't cool anymore. Like it's not what young people like want to do and how strange that is, because that's like all I wanted to do. Like that's all anybody I knew wanted to do. Kind of. Jason was a DJ, for God's sake. Do you think he did that because he loves music? It's crazy. When I first started writing my novel, I thought that they all drank and did drugs in a normal way. That was just how people live. And then I got sober about a year into writing it, and I was like, oh, they are all alcoholics. drug addicts well that's the point no that's the way that the way that in the book the way that you talk about they're doing it right the way you talk about coke and stuff it's all it feels like you can just tell it's like from someone who knows it's not from someone who like did some research on the internet about it that that's what i mean it feels real i mean it's interesting like that whole period it's hard i try to avoid being too like seeing it as too halcyon or being you know too nostalgic about it the early years I really loved because I was so young that I think I was robust enough to handle it and my own behavior wasn't so terrible yet the period in my 20s right before I got sober because I got sober when I was 26 I just see as I just see as sad you know I just see myself as like I could never go home I was so lonely I was always doing things I felt ashamed of you know I would just wake up feeling absolutely like if you wrung me out like a sponge it would just be shame that came out of me and so I always wanted

Whenever I, you know, I love writing these kind of like, you know, great Gatsby-esque scenes. Like I love the party and all my second novel, I always like to write about partying and I like to write about kind of death defying partying where it's like the way people use, they take it right to the edge. But I always want to show the kind of the loneliness or the grittiness underneath that. my hope if someone reads the book is not that they're like oh yeah i want to fucking do that you know like i don't think no no no people feel like oh that was sad no i'm not i didn't mean it was like glamorized in any way i just mean i was like you you can just tell the way people Even in life, you talk to people, you're like, oh, you've never actually experienced something. You're talking about it from what you've seen in film and TV or whatever, you know? And then other times you're like, oh, this feels like this is from someone who's dealt with it is all. I'm so glad because while I was doing it, so much of the excuse was, oh, you know, it's good to write about it. But of course, at the time, I wasn't writing about it because I was always too hungover to actually do the work. Oh, you were like, you were like, guys, I'm doing research. Leave me alone. Yeah, I was all under the umbrella of research. I was like, this is absolutely research. And so now I am really glad that I'm like, it genuinely turned out to be research because I used, I am constantly returning to those years and the feelings of those years because they were all so heightened. And I would say my life today is comparatively just. so staid and stable. It's not dull to live, but terribly dull to write about. It's not dull to live if you're listening, babe. It's just not fun to write about. No, I know, but I'm like a happy marriage. Gross, who wants to hear about it? That is deeply boring. It is, you're right. But absolutely gorgeous to live. I have to say, really, really enjoying living it. Coco, when you were feeling like you were being wrung out and shame was coming out, super hungover would would you have the the hangover meal the night before you go to sleep or the morning after you wake up oh my god my absolute my blind my complete faith in the idea that if i ate pasta before i went to sleep i wouldn't be hungover

It's absolutely never proven to be true. Some people believe in God. I believe in carbs before bed. I would put my life in this being a fact. Okay, when you say pasta, do you mean Kraft macaroni and cheese, or are we getting out? Are we hand-rolling? Are we making a sausage and scratch hand-rolling? I'm getting out my pasta in the machine, please. I would, like, barely. The number of pots and pans that I would wake up in the morning, they would be burnt through the bottom because I'd fallen asleep as the water was boiling. Towards the end of my drinking, I had to make all my pasta in a wok because I didn't have any sauce left. And it never, sometimes it was pasta and sometimes it was, oh my God, it's horrifying to admit, but Cool Ranch Doritos, I really believed could soak up alcohol. So the last night I ever drank, I woke up the next morning and I was covered in the crumbs of Cool Ranch Doritos. Okay, that would make me call it too. I felt like it can't get any lower and I have to stop. But it did nothing to mitigate. I had horrible, horrible hangovers. Some drinkers are physically more able to drink and they have the hollow leg and they kind of put it away. But I wasn't like that. I was what's called a Jekyll and Hyde drinker where my personality completely changed when I drank. I became a horrible person. And I was really sick. Horrible. Horrible. And I was really sick. I can't even, the listening of places I've thrown up in New York. What do you mean by a horrible person, though? How horrible, in what way? I just was like, you know, I think when I was drinking, and I talk about this opening, I write about it a lot with my characters. Terrible racist. Oh, no, no, no, not that. Not that level of horrible. Okay, yeah, I don't know. You know that way of being in New York that I think is common amongst younger people, where I was just kind of like snide and cynical and a bit prickly and nasty, and it was such a way of hiding insecurity.

but thinking that that made me like edgy or funny or clever, you know, just that like, it's such a poisonous way of being, to be honest. It's uncomfortable. It's not nice to be around you're always on edge. And a lot of my friends were also like that. So we were just very barbed towards each other. You know, it's just, I just can't imagine having relationships like that today where I constantly feel on edge around people and I'm so sort of defensive and mean, you know, and I just, and I, I don't think I am mean as a person, but I would wake up the next day and remember things I had said or done or, you know, just feeling, god just like i mean that experience of just really hating yourself just feeling like if that is the real me i do not like me and that wasn't the real me that was just me that was very unwell i'm just so relieved not not to do that anymore okay i mean it was glam on the surface it wasn't even that glam on the surface i always think i was kind of an in-betweener and that like I wasn't like a Leela Zark or like a Chloe Savini. You know, I wasn't professionally partying, but I was around. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. I was doing this because I loved it, not because I was getting paid. You know, that's what's important. I was doing this in hopes of getting my photo on the Cobra Snake. And often I could like get in because someone else got me in. but it wasn't off my own name, you know? So it was always that feeling of being like you were in the party, but you weren't fully in the inner circle. And I often, I think that kind of in-between state is very common for writers. Like I always felt like I was out, but I wasn't like a true night. I wasn't like a party girl, you know? I wasn't like what I was known for. And like, even when I was, you know, being a writer, I always feel like I'm a bit more like commercial. I'm like, you know, I love fashion. I worked as a fashion copywriter, but I wasn't as like fashion-y as the fashion girls, but I wasn't as like literary as the like full. You'd like the people in my MFA who lived in Gowanus with six poets and a cat called Proust. I wasn't one of them. Damn, imagine having a cat named Proust. That's dark.

But that definitely happens. I don't have to imagine it. That's fucking real. That's fucking real. Well, what is the... But you're doing TV with the... I mean, obviously, right now, it's all on hold. But how far in the process are you with the TV version? Oh, God, it's a slow process. I think we're taking it out to streamers whenever the strike is over. So we have a co-showrunner. I'm also writing and adapting it. We have a director. We have the studio, Warner Brothers. But TV is, you know, selling a book is fair. It's difficult, but it's fairly straightforward. Like you sell a book and unless actually you could go to prison and I think your book would still come out probably. So there's really very little. We've I think we've had authors on this show that have been in prison when the book came out, you know, so I think that that is true. it it's gonna come out whereas with tv it's just i mean it's snakes and others you know it's like there's just so many people i think you guys do have things in development i'm sure you're familiar it's just a long long road it just seems like i guess when you realize that like there are people who professionally write and sell things that never get made and that is their entire career you're like good living yeah you make a lot of money but i'm just like i don't compute that like i don't know if i could live like that you know what i mean um but i guess that like there's no other way if that's what you do you got to keep trying and at least you're being paid well for it you know i think it's corrosive though to like the creative spirit and to never have anyone see because you know you guys make a podcast and it's right out there immediately and people are responding and reacting and that's part of what makes it the vitality of the show is i'm sure that the feedback you receive totally no it's it's absolutely intoxicating honestly like part of the reason i think we do so many episodes is that it's like the the consistency and like the feedback is so instantaneous that it's like pretty gratifying even if people are like you suck yeah you know it's still like it's still hearing something about what you're doing i yeah like working for three years on something and some guy at a studio just telling you no is not going to kind of be inspiring yeah i mean and you know i would say novel writing is more similar to that in some ways and that you work on something for years and years and yeah my first book i worked on for five years i started when i was 20

and I sold it when I was 30. And I really remember having these moments of being like, this just may never be read outside of anyone that I physically give it to. Yeah. You know, like my friends might read it. Turns out they were right. Hand-to-hand combat. Yes, exactly. Like the smallest, what is it when you're a micro-influencer, being like a micro-author, like the people who read your book are related to you. I like it. It's family members and close friends. I decided to publish on Substack. Yeah, exactly. It's a friends and family only novel. Very VIP. Very VIP. But I actually, I found, I remember sort of feeling like I'm okay with that because I love it. I love doing this. I wouldn't want to do anything else. But I, the experience of having readers is a joy. It is. But I am curious what you said. How do you deal with negative feedback when the feedback is, you know, this sucks? Or even harsher does? Oh, I'm just, I'm just, I'm. I'm used to getting shit on. That's kind of part of my... I'm fairly opinionated, so it kind of comes with the territory. I probably hear it more than you. Jason, most of the feedback you're getting is positive, right? Yeah, it's rare that I'll read negative reviews. But I mean, I'll see reviews about the podcast. And usually, I don't really let it affect me, even if it is a specific grading reference. that kind of cuts a little bit deeper than like these guys suck one star. Usually you can just kind of see through it and see that it's coming from a place of pain or someone's been affected by one little thing that you said on one page of the book or one episode out of 500 and they didn't like how that made them feel and they want you to sort of feel something similar. They want to take a pound of flesh out of you. They want to affect you in a certain way. They usually are a fan. They usually like you. If you wrote back to them, they would apologize. But it's just internet stuff. My thing is a little bit like if you don't like it, go somewhere else. Unfortunately, that's kind of my attitude. We're not the only game in town. We're just the one that you happen to like. And if you stop liking it, I don't need to hear that from you. You can just leave. I don't have that. I would never have that impulse to kind of do that. It's a foreign concept to me to do something like that.

Um, it's partly because of my age. Like I'm just, I'm like beyond that, but I, I don't think that, um, I never did that in my life. So it's hard to understand feeling compelled to do that. But also like it, it bothers me. Sometimes it bothers me. I think I've gotten better at it. Um, because I just think people, I think there's like a realization also where it's like, you know, that this is like entertainment. yeah extent like what we're doing is the goal is to be entertaining like it's not to show my truest self you know i mean that's not that's not this isn't this isn't therapy like we keep it real but it's not that's not the goal the goal is to like have a fun conversation and keep it moving and like if you don't you know if if that's not for you then Keep it moving. You can listen to Malcolm Gladwell. That's the answer. That's what I always say to everyone. You can go read Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, there's a million books. Coco, we read all of his books. Yeah, we've read all of his books. So you're, but you have a second. I love Malcolm Gladwell. That's what I'm saying. No, it could be worse. You have a second. Now your other, your second book is done. Almost done. Almost done. Last, last edit due next week, but it's a small edit. So how do you feel about it? I think it's better than my first book. Okay. That's good. I would hope so. I would hope so. So you think it's better. It fucking better be. Okay. Do you feel a phase right before I'm like, you know, writing a novel is a long, is it, is a journey. So there's always a point for me, like kind of midway to two thirds of the way through where I just, I'm like, why, why did I write this? much worse than anything i've done before i hate it why did i pick this subject and that's always really brutal that's another one i like to roll yarn um to go through and i just have to kind of keep plugging away and then the last time i read through the book from start to finish you know i print it out i read it like a real book you know so i can get a sense of how it moves on the page and it's not a perfect of course it's not a perfect novel the longer the book the more fault it's gonna have to be honest yeah but there were certain sections where i was like yeah like

This is good. I killed this shit. Yo, I killed this shit. You're looking in the mirror telling yourself how great you are. You have to write the book you want to read. And I was like, I am enjoying reading this. If no one else says, I enjoyed it. I was like, that's a good feeling. That is a good, no, that is a good feeling. Is it? Is it in a similar vein? Like, is the subject matter similar in any way? Or is it like a full departure? It's a departure in that it's a whole new set of characters. It's a family novel. It's about sisters. But it is about addiction still. And I think it's quite a similar tone in that there's always this balance between levity and gravity and darkness and light. And I always try to write things that are humorous and funny at the same time as hopefully feeling, you know, sad. This book is about grief a lot. so i think if you like my style of writing this book is very similar but the actual story is quite different yeah yeah and i feel i had to go a lot deeper with the characters like cleopatra and frankenstein was such a tap dance of a novel it was so i'm so proud of it but it's such a novel of my 20s it's very like do you love me do you love me do you love me like i can do this i can do third person i can do first person i can do like seven different perspectives half of them are men in their 40s you know like And it came from such a place of, like, most first novels feel overstuffed for that reason, because you're trying to prove yourself. And I feel in this book, it's three perspectives. So it's still a polyphonic. It's still moving in terms of point of view. But I go a lot deeper with each character. And I didn't allow myself to out. The tap dance is quite surface level. And I decided to just go to that place that's less shiny and just a bit more, like, that's just kind of, like, comes from a bit more of a confident place. Like, okay, like, I can write this. So it was a more it was a grounding experience. And I wrote it during the pandemic. You know, I wrote it in my 30s and I was married at this point. It's just a different phase of life. Does does the new book also feature 40 year old men? You know, I think the men are younger. I think they're mostly in their 30s. It's definitely.

Okay. I'm just saying because I like the representation. There's just something about a fan in his 40s, am I right? He's so famously underrepresented in their 40s. Hey, hey, hey, chill. Your words, not mine, Coco. Chill, chill, chill. That's why we do How Long Gone? Representation. That's what this show's about. I want to know who's going to play. In your mind's eye, who's playing? Because Cleo sounds so hot, right? In my head, I'm like, oh, Cleo is so bad. Everybody's just so taken by her beauty. In your mind, who is that? You know what I mean? Like, who is that? If it's your dream world, you know, I never, of course we had to think about casting when we were thinking about the TV show. So we had like a whole list of actors. I never really say it because I don't like being prescriptive in that way. Like I hate when a book cover is like the movie still, because the whole joy of reading is imagining. And I often imagining. No, you know, okay. tell readers who someone is if i'm like it's i don't i'm not going to say anyone but chris why don't chris why don't you answer the question then yes tell me who you think she is well i mean i guess she's it's tough because she's like what like 25 right 24 25 yeah i i don't know either jason that's why i was asking because it's like i feel like the people that i'm thinking of are a little bit older because they like embody the like vibe more but you you know 24, 25 is like... Maybe a Lily Rose Depp, Chris? No, not Lily Rose Depp. You need somebody who can act. So I don't, you know... Okay, got it, got it, okay. I think she's younger than that as well, I think. But that's what I love about reading. Sometimes it's like so many characters, they're so alive to me, but they're just like a feeling. Like I couldn't necessarily say like, yes, I couldn't draw. Like for Blue Sisters with the cover, I've just been asked, we're doing a custom painting. And I've been asked to give examples of people who look like the sisters. And I was like, there isn't anyone I can, in my mind, I know what they look like and feel like, but I'm like, I can't cast them. It's not a movie. It's a book. Like do your thing, bro. And that's part of what I like about books. That's the privacy of a novel. There's so few things in life that are really deeply private in that way that are entertainment. I mean, books are completely unique in that space.

So I always find it sort of – it cheapens it somehow to be like, oh, she's whatever, Florence, put you on your tail of joy. Not that those aren't amazing people who I would love to play Cleo. I'm out on those two. I don't know who it is. Say no more, Coco. Say no more. They've got to be a little sexier. I'm going to think about this. I'll email you. Don't worry. We'll figure this out together. I don't want to burden you with it here on the air. I'll give you an easier question as we're closing out, Coco. And we ask this question. You don't have to answer this question if it is a trigger to you or not. it out but um top three prescription pills of all time oh god i honestly can't even answer that not out of not because i'm triggered but because i didn't really take prescription pills that's very american i'm like i can't even i like that i'm like what you said your little question is cute american i'm like that's not a british thing i didn't have access to them Top three mind-altering substances. I'm like, oh, mind-altering substances. I think that could be, I would say, like, television, sugar, and shopping. You can't say a good book. You can't say a good book. Shopping do be getting you high. Yeah, if you said a good book, we'd hang up on you. I think that is mind-altering. Like, what counts as mind-altering? Like, just something that, I mean, anything that makes me feel like... Top three hard goods? What do you call it? Dry goods. Dry goods? Oh, God. Top three dry goods, we'll call it. Top three dry goods. um triggering but i find it like cringe to be like like i don't know there's something about like bragging about the drug use that i just find i'm like whatever like who cares i haven't done drugs do you think it comes off as a brag i think Well, we only ask it because it says a lot about a person to us. You think that the drugs say more than asking top three something else? Yeah, because I think, well, not necessarily more, but just in a way that if you have done drugs or dry goods, then you know. I guess, I mean, it's been so many years since I've done any of them. And also, I would say, you know, it's like I never even drank a martini when I drank. Like, I was so unadvented. Like, I drank Prosecco. Like, I liked sugary drinks.

that didn't really date like oh like a vodka orange and i don't even think i tried like i wasn't like massively yeah i know vodka orange or vodka pineapple worst hangovers of your life. Are you super, are you like a sugar freak now? Yes. I mean, I wish there was a nicer term for that. Sugar freak is it. I think it's pretty nice. Sugar freak is it. Or sugar babes, like the pop singers in England. Sugar babes. Sugar babes. The addiction to sugar is very real. It's like, I feel like, would I rather quit sugar or take my own life? I don't know. You know, it's like really, it's tough. It's a tough call. I don't know where in LA you live. I'm going to guess Beachwood Canyon. I just moved. I left LA. I moved to Brooklyn. We're actually in the process of trying to find an apartment at the moment, which is hellish. I don't recommend it. You went back to New York too. It's something I'm seeing a lot in my life is people going back to New York. It's really interesting. I just missed it. I missed it so, so much. I wanted to love LA. I really tried to make it work. I got the car. I couldn't drive when I arrived. I took my driver's lap test. All the teenagers making TikTok videos, I really tried to commit, but I'm just not an L.A. person, it turns out. I mean, at least you tried. At least you tried versus just writing it off completely. Most people do that. Yeah, I know. I gave it a good go. I sold the rights to the TV show while I was there, so I feel like I really did the L.A. thing. If you're going to go, go full voice. Yeah, no, that's true. You came, you saw, you conquered. Yeah, exactly, and then I left to go back. Back to Gowanus I go. Back to Gowanus and my cat called Proust. Proust, Proust. They do not know this. They're like, is that a street in Santa Monica? I've actually never been on that. That's crazy, dude. I'm on the Proust cleanse right now. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Is that a cleanse? Or is it Proust? I actually have never known if it's Proust or Proust. Actually, I don't know either. It's Proust. I don't know either. Come on. It's Proust. Okay. Jason.

Yeah, Jason knows. Yeah, he's the expert here. Thank you for joining us on How Long Gone. It was a pleasure. The book, Cleopatra and Frankenstein, is everywhere. And then the new one, what's it called? Blue Sisters. Blue Sisters is out, what, next year? Yes. March next year. Great. Well, it was a pleasure. And thank you for taking the time. And we will see you soon. We hope you had fun, Coco. Thank you so much. I loved it. Pleasure. We'll talk to you later. Okay, bye.