465. - Roe Ethridge

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Chris Black coming to you live from... Chris Storer's office on the set of The Bear Season 2 in Chicago. I have my feet kicked up. I'm disrespecting his property. It feels good to be in a real office setting with lots of people. Kind of running around, Jason. Yeah, let me paint a picture. We got storyboards behind you. Could you explain what that is exactly and what episode, what season? Yeah, so I've been here for like 48 hours. I had to meet with Chris and his partners on some other stuff, but they were shooting, so I got to go to set today and kind of see them at work. And I've been with these guys. We went to dinner last night, the whole thing, and they haven't given me one iota of plot. It's incredible how they talk around it. They've given me nothing. No guest stars, no plot twists, no idea of what's happening. Which is kind of interesting because you really do not give off the energy of somebody who... honestly it gives two flying shits about the plot of any tv show it's true but i think because they they are i think that's just like what they're used to behavior wise yeah so it's just i i get the same treatment but um yeah it's been interesting i i've never been on a television set before um so it's pretty wild to kind of be in the kitchen you know watching it all go down with maddie matheson breathing in my ear

You know, it's romantic as it can be. But Chris and his partners have been, Josh and Cooper have been great hosts. They, you know, Chris is kind of like a snappy dresser. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He wears a tie every day to work, which I, seeing it in action has done, I'm like, okay, this really is something, like he's in charge, so it really works for him. It's not like he's the fucking guy driving me home, you know, in the sprinter. Right. So I think it works, but yeah, it's been a full. I had to come to Chicago to get Hollywood, Jason, and it's a twist I didn't see coming. It's kind of interesting because you found the one television producer who dresses well, I guess, and also it's sort of scratching your itch or you're able to move between the worlds of fashion and television seamlessly, no pun intended, around. It's basically like Tom Brown himself is directing this television show. um you know set in gritty shy town it's it's crazy yeah when you pull up and the director's got the byredo candle on his desk and he's wearing drakes it's it does i did feel a warm hug when i walked in here honey i'm home i know and you know somebody you know what's really impressive actually this is insane um yesterday you know we put in a coffee order and and you know whatever this morning i show up for for day two the assistant brings coffee for me same order didn't even i didn't even know she knew i was going to be here oh shit yeah so pro it was like really impressive she was like almond milk cortado i was like uh yeah she's like all right yeah here we go same as yesterday and i was just like damn i'm really impressed well-oiled machine okay so it feels like because like back in the day i know that you know we reminisce of the day you know if you've read the caa book and everything movie sets Hollywood glitz and glamour and then TV was sort of the stepchild in the in the in the bunch yeah and it does it feel as if the tables have turned a lot you know at all I mean obviously people say that television is sort of

you know, where it's at compared to cinema, thanks to streaming. But do you feel like a resurgence or a renaissance of television? Well, I think it's just like anything else, any other industry. I think if money is being made, if something is successful and winning awards and making money, then the situation is going to be good. And I think that's the truth across the board in most places. But yeah, I think that the... watching them rehearse and do the i mean it's really i've never been in this situation before so it's really interesting to watch and i think it's like um you know i got to i was sitting in video village with the headphones on you know what i'm saying i was really in my i was really in my fucking bag and they're all getting it they all they all love it because they're just like look at this fucking idiot you know what i mean like having the having the best time being like jeremy can you do that one more time just try it one more time i just you know i don't know man i just we got i think we got it but just One more time. It just wasn't exact. It's not for me. Yeah, Chris was like, bro, I know your name is Chris, but that's kind of my job. But, you know, we worked through it. We were able to work through it. But, yeah, the sun's out. I got to go to the Ralph Lauren restaurant with Ben Edgar, the mayor of Chicago, on Sunday night when I got in. So it's been a pretty successful trip to the Midwest, which is. So a great trip. You had hashtag set life. You got to eat, I'm assuming. A lightly cooked piece of fish with Ben Edgar. What else do you need, right? I mean, I went to Maddie, Josh, and Cooper, and Rick took me to Nobu last night, where something interesting happened, Jason. First of all, Maddie ordered, I mean, it was five guys. He ordered the 50-piece nigiri, which felt like some real... 50-piece... Well, first of all, Illinois, what a great sushi state, but was it 50-piece straight for him, or was that... No, no, it was for the... It was for the table, but then he ordered the uni as well, and he took a bite of the uni, and his face looked, you know, he didn't look well. And he was like, this uni tastes like diarrhea. I'm like, I'm not a big uni guy, but I understand. And it was, he had to say something. Yeah, he walked up privately and was like, hey, man, that uni, there might be something.

off with that i the last time i ordered uni i did that actually the second to last you you had the same situation where you're like this doesn't taste right and somebody was like and you you went and had to had to approach the bench yeah but i handled it very very low key i mean i basically because the problem is like it's pretty like if you love uni you sort of know or yeah for our listeners at home we're talking about sea urchin row It's a delicacy. A lot of people might not know. Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. It is a delicacy. We have fans all over the world. It's expensive, too. I mean, that's part of the... It's very expensive. It's very delicate. You know, it's harvested. There's a lot of labor and cost. And when you taste really good uni, you're like, oh, fuck, this is so good. It's so crazy. So it's very easy to tell when you've got diarrhea uni. And when you're paying like fucking $30 for a bite of it, you're goddamn right. But yeah, I walk up to the server kind of on the low and just be like, hey, just to let you know, I think the uni kind of turned a little bit. And they're usually kind of embarrassed if it's a reputable establishment. Like Nobu. I guess if it really was a reputable establishment, they would never serve you diarrhea uni. But that's another thing. We don't have enough time for that. Well, my question to you then is, Jason, I know you're not. you know a sushi chef but how fast can the uni turn you know what i mean is it like really within like a 12 hour period it could it could go wrong i would say i mean like with all fish you know this as soon as it dies it's it's getting worse and worse with time um and you don't really want to freeze the urchin i would say you know I wouldn't want to have it more than 24 hours if you're doing it expensive, but they have to fly. I prefer Santa Barbara to Hokkaido myself. Of course. In terms of carbon footprint as well as flavor. I think they're able to harvest a nice batch in Lake Michigan. I could be wrong, but maybe that was the issue. The temperature of the water in Lake Michigan just wasn't right this season. Look, the drinking water in Flint, I would not fill up your Nalgene with it, but it does something so crazy to the sea urchin.

I can't explain it. I think it's going to turn this city around. Yeah, that's really all I've got to report. Like I said, it's been a little... Are you ever going to come back or are you just shy-pilled? Well, I was a little bit... I've been hanging around enough and I've been making friends kind of in all facets of the business. I'm talking to the prop master. The teamsters are loving me because Matty's wearing his Carhartt and they think I'm with him. But I'm a little... Yeah, I haven't been... It's weird because I haven't been asked to kind of, you know, walk by in the background or maybe order a sandwich or anything. So maybe it's just... It could just be the shooting schedule or something, you know? I think that your star power could end up being distracting as an extra in the background because people are instantly going to... It's going to break the internet. It's going to break the FX. No, I know. And be like, holy shit, there go Chris Black. And then suddenly I'm taken out of the plot line. No, and Eben is walking around in his full costume yesterday, which I was really feeling like the kind of motorcycle leather jacket with the track pants and the bear, the original beef of Chicagoland t-shirt on. And I was like, I like that you feel that everybody feels this comfortable. And I was like, maybe that's my problem, though, is that I'm not kind of... My costume, I just look like a guy that works at an ad agency, unfortunately. So maybe if I dressed for the part that I want, they would kind of see me differently. Yeah, right now it looks like the part that you want is when I'm at a bookstore and I ask to speak to the manager, you're the motherfucker who come out. They're like, the part you're looking for is... No, we're not going to make any of the male characters gay. You cannot be their boyfriend. We can't change the script for you, dude. You're only here for two days. I'm a little upset. I kind of do need to be someone's boyfriend in the show. It's pretty important, but we'll see. Do you feel like when people say it can almost be inhibiting when you sort of imagine yourself to be in a position like...

You're sort of playing the role of a television producer at low level, but still. I've got to start somewhere. Associate producer. Okay. Associate producer. So you're sort of role-playing as an AP. Does that mean subconsciously you're going to think that you are an actual AP, and you have put in the work to achieve this, so thusly you'd never have to try to shoot for these stars ever again? hindering your ability to actually be an AP IRL no I don't think so I think I've made some strides in Hollywood in these couple days and I think that like the dividends will reveal themselves but I don't you know I don't want to I don't want to push too far I don't want to ask too many questions I just kind of want to sit back have the experience and then return back to New York and my humble life there. And, you know, kind of have to get my own coffees. Your little life. But we do have a guest today. He's one of my favorite photographers of all time, Ro Etheridge. He spent a lot of time growing up in Atlanta, which we have in common, which I'm very excited to talk about, as you know. But you've seen, he just had a show. ike goes in uptown uh his new monograph is out now you can get that uh wherever uh books are sold american polychronic which has nothing to do with marijuana after some googling exactly uh and ro we're we're very lucky to have him he's one of the only guests where usually when i'm on my um silly little dog walks with bae she'll be like oh who's on the pot today and i'll be like blah blah blah blah and she's like whatever okay even if it's a famous person she's like Sick, cool. Cool. And then when I was like, oh, we got Ro Etheridge on today, she spit out her fucking coffee, basically, just like, what? Are you fucking sick? I do it for Carolyn. You know that. I do it for Carolyn. The booking department, we're focused on stuff like that. But yeah, let's give Ro a jingle and find out what he's up to. Yeah, and I need to know how Andrew WK's face got all bloody for that pig.

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs.

handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Ro, are you wearing your own merch just quickly? I am.

It's not mine, per se. It's Etude. Okay, you did a collaboration. You did a collaboration. Yeah. Okay, so this is not your collection of Roe by Roe Etheridge. No, I'm also promoting Roe by Roe Etheridge. Well, it's not. I guess I'm going to have to change the name of my company or something. Roe by Roe. So Mary-Kate and Ashley are cool with it. Yeah, they'll leave you alone. Yeah, actually, have you ever shot? Roe, first question, you ever shot Mary-Kate or Ashley Olsen? No, but I did do a campaign for them very early on, which was, it was funny that Roe did the Roe. I'm sure the jokes were flying on set that day, right? I don't really remember, but, yeah, there was some, at some point. How could they not have? I wasn't lost on anyone. That's good, because, yeah, I think if you, I could see you doing the row R-O-E, and that really, you know, that would cause some litigious behavior from those two, but you could probably get away with row by row. I think that feels a little safer. Yeah. Diffusion line. I mean, the spelling has been, you know, speaking of. jokes about my name you know it's like my whole life right you row your boat you know as a popular song amongst children and sure i was like it's not spelled that way oh it's not funny you know and then and then you grew up in the south so kind of the catfishing community probably made a lot of jokes regarding bait and things like that i'm assuming yeah so so i still say it you know like fish eggs so that you know i can sort of like say that instead of like Abortion, you know? Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, that's a little easier to digest. Didn't even think about that one. No, I got a lot of people sending me like New York Times headlines that were like, Roe is dead. And it's like, well, long live Roe, you know? I don't know. And you're like, rude. So, yeah, I mean, obviously you've been asked about your name a zillion times, I'm sure, but.

You know, it seems like it's one of those very unique, interesting names that you would get growing up in the West Village with funky parents who give you that name. But growing up in like suburban Atlanta. Yeah. It also has the energy of like one of those kind of cool southern names that have sort of fallen by the wayside but have like a little. It is. You know, Chris, I'm sure you have a bunch of examples of names like that as well. like huck or something you know no there's are but it's like there's like wasp names that you learn from living in new york you know where it's always a short form it's like it doesn't really make sense and somebody explains it to you you're like so you got that from elizabeth like okay sure yeah yeah we can do that yeah but but in the south in the south i think there probably are some like maybe like a tarl with a t or something yeah there's some i mean because even my dad's middle name being lamar you know that's insane yeah like my dad Dad's middle name being Lamar is crazy. That has to be Southern. There's no reason for him to, like, that's not our lineage or something. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, my name on my birth certificate is Roy Monroe Etheridge III. So it is very Southern. My dad grew up in Albany, Georgia, which is like, you know, close to the Alabama border. And, you know, it's like one of those things where he said he grew up being called Sonny. Little Roy, Junior, and like every other thing you could call if you're a second. And so when they decided to stick with the third, they were going to pick a nickname so that everybody would just use one nickname and Ro was what it was from Monroe. That's good parenting. So you're saying it kind of combines your first and middle name. Well, it's taking the R-O-E off of Monroe. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, I got it now. I like the idea of everyone sitting down to sort of take a country folk vote on what the young'un's nickname is going to be. While they're eating pecans up there. All right, gather around, y'all. We're fixing the name, Ro, for good. Time to decide what the boy child's name will be.

Y'all sit down. I haven't thought about Albany, Georgia in a very long time. Jason, you think that I have southern roots? Albany is some real shit. I reckon that's two ticks down from Chattahoochee, right? You ain't ready for that, Jason. You ain't ready for that. Down by the creek. Did you go there growing up to visit family and ride four-wheelers and shit? We did go to the family reunion in Thomasville. Oh, yeah. For a few years. And as you can see here, your listeners can't see. I'm wearing a Florida State hat. Go Seminoles. Go Noles. So both my parents went there. My uncle went there. Lots of family. And my great aunt was at FSU when it was a women's college. Oh, I didn't know it was ever a women's college. Interesting. Yeah, that's like within the football rivalry, that's like a joke that often comes up like, yeah, well, you know, it's a girl's school or whatever. Oh, I see. Basically, you guys are a bunch of pussies. I got it. Okay. But we showed them this year, so. Fuck you, Gators. Fuck you, Cain. Sorry. You know, better luck. Okay, so I like this Florida because, you know, I actually, funnily enough, I have a lot of deep connections to Tallahassee because there was a thriving hardcore scene there. Oh, yeah. When I was growing up, and we would drive there to play shows and go to shows. Oh, no shit. So I spent, like, a lot of time in Tallahassee. So you played at Planet 10? Yeah, yeah. And there was also, what was the other place? There was the place, it was like a, It was like a... Oh, my God. It was kind of like a commune a little bit. Yeah. And bands would play. There was like a rec center that bands would play in. Yeah. That was further... It was in the woods a little bit. It was in the woods a little bit. Yeah, it was where Darth Vader's church used to live. What is Darth Vader's church? Pardon me? They were a thrash band.

And, yeah, I forget the name of that place, but that was still, like, at that time, I was there from 87 to 89. Okay, okay. But, yeah, Planet 10, I mean, I just got, somebody just sent me pictures from a government issue show. Shit, shit. There's pictures of, you know, like, with my flannel shirt, with the pocket ripped off, and I'm like, of course. Like, you know. And then I saw Henry Rollins' first tour as Henry Rollins' band. And the stage there was like two by four. It was like four inches high. I love when the stage is literally two by four height. It's like, what are we doing? I don't know if this makes a difference, really. You couldn't see Henry because he's bent over the whole time doing the thing. You're standing looking down at Henry Rollins while he's like... I was like, try not to bump into him because you don't want to, like, stop the show or be, you know. Get punched. Beaten to death. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he's not the sweetest guy. Tallahassee is a really funny place, though. It is because it's like. It's one of those cities that you can't believe is the capital of the state. You know what I mean? Because it feels, I mean, obviously the university is really big and like the football program is really big. So there's all this stuff there, but it was a funny, it was kind of sleepy though in its own way. It never felt, it didn't feel big. Even like when you would go there, when like school was in session, it didn't feel like crazy. Cause I, cause I used to go to Athens all the time. Athens feels fucking insane. If there's a football game. Oh, yeah, it's a totally different thing, yeah. I mean, you know, I think the population, it always felt like the population of Tallahassee, like, was cut in half, you know, as soon as the semester ended. I spent my summer there, and I guess it was 88 and 89 as well. And so it was great to, like, be in this, like, whatever, the Mossy Oak, you know, south. Yeah. And, like, nobody around, just your friends and, you know, getting into trouble.

But also, you know, I guess because so much of my family has either lived there or still live there, it did feel a little bit like I was visiting a kind of home. You know, it's like, I'm not going to live here. I'm not going to say I'm going to go to art school. I'm going to get the fuck out of this town. But at the same time, it was like, I don't know. I guess it's a normal thing in any region. for the South, it really felt like it was like this sort of iconic swampy Southern thing. You know, it's like a particular one of America's most iconic swamps. Top swamps. They all existed. They all exist in Florida and new Orleans maybe, but you know, we gotta, we gotta divvy up the pot. Yeah. I mean, I tell Jason all the time, like once you live in, you know, I've lived in New York. or LA for, you know, over 15 years. So I haven't been, I haven't lived in Atlanta a really long time. But I, when I, I just feel a draw to it more now than I ever have. Cause when you leave, you're like, yeah, they don't get it, man. They don't understand me. This place is stuck in the past. They're going to regret. Exactly. Exactly. And then you, and then you get older and you're like, you know, it's not that bad. You know what I'm saying? It's a nice quality of life. You can live a normal life. Yeah, you can live a normal life. There's good places to eat. It's not just like, you know, whatever, Zesto's and the Varsity or whatever, you know? Damn. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not just like a hot dog and French fries. There's real food. I mean, I love, I do, now that we're saying it, I remember the Euclid Avenue hot dog. I think they had a chili dog. You know, it was like the Yacht Club, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, Yacht Club is still there. I heard. I heard actually some friends of mine just, they went to the Bill Callahan show and then went to the Yacht Club afterwards and it was like, we don't even like, like look at other people while we're there it's like we're as and they don't look at us it's like we're just like 50 year old men who sort of like yes are to to not be seen you know well this is what happens though this is what happens like when jason because we do shows there and jason's come to visit for us to write and you know jason's come a few times hang out with me and it's always like

I only want to go to Elmira and the shitholes that I went to when I lived there. And there's all these new amazing places. And I'm like, yeah, I guess we can go do that. But it's not top of the heap. You know what I'm saying? You want to go relive a little something or at least feel that warm hug of something that you recognize. And it's tough because the city that's grown that much, there is so much to go see now. No, it's true. It's exploded. It's a totally different place than it was. Atlanta for New York in 97. So, you know, it was kind of starting to, I guess, like, you know, there was more of a, you know, talk about the belt line and, you know, like doing different things. And it just seemed like. Yeah, right. Like, that's going to do anything. And then it turned out to do everything. I was like, fucking A, man. This place is weird. So you're going to build a trail and put a Kroger next to it? And this is going to – You know that that Kroger is called Murder Kroger, right? I told you that, Jason. It's called Murder Kroger. I mean, there's a Disco Kroger and a Murder Kroger, which are really two sides of the same coin in a lot of ways. Yeah. So much – I mean, it's funny because, like, I do – I go on those trips with Chris, and I don't have any nostalgic connection to these places, but it is fun to see him kind of light up as he eats one of the shittiest burritos I've ever had in my life. And I'm like, you know, as I'm peeing in one of the dirtiest bathrooms of my entire life. And I'm like, this is so anti the Chris that I know that it's so interesting to see a glimpse of this because we all have our versions of that where it's like, Look, guys, I know this sucks. I know you're not going to like this, but, like, I have to do this for me. And as somebody who loves me, you have to fucking do it, too. I'm just sorry. Those are the rules. You're going to just think the scar that you'll have from it, you'll cherish later. My scars tell a story. And they say, I did a lot of coke in this bathroom.

Exactly. That's what all my scars say. Did you guys go to Claremont Lounge? No, because Jason actually stayed at the Claremont Hotel because they've redone it. Yeah, that's right. But I believe the lounge is – I believe they've left it alone. I think that was part of the deal is that they can redo the hotel. And it was actually – Jason, you liked staying there. It wasn't bad, was it? It's a sweet little hotel that I really enjoy. But when you go there on like – A Tuesday and you check in and there's just like a guy at the coffee shop being like, hey, you're going to go see the War on Drugs concert this weekend? We have a really good brownie. And then on Friday night, it's like. blackout hillbillies with 24 packs of blood light just like i'll fucking fuck i'll fucking kill you bro like we're just walking you know but that's it's a strange that's i mean that's it that's atlanta over there that's atlanta and it's also the location of that is so good like at least for the life that i live there like the idea of staying in the middle of ponce de leon when all of my haunts when it was the local or mjq or All that stuff is right there, so it makes so much sense in my mind. Whereas Jason, I'm sure, would prefer to stay in Buckhead. He doesn't give a shit about being able to walk to a bar to have hot wings. He does not care. But I don't give him much of a choice, you know what I mean? So we find a way around it. Ro, I wanted to talk about the book. I made a joke at the beginning of the show saying... I was surprised that American polychronic had nothing to do with marijuana, but I know that polychronic is a real word, but the way that you sort of use it is a little different than, I guess, like the Webster's definition, which is sort of like a multitasker, I guess, which you kind of are in photography, but you're using it as a way of saying there's no chronological order that's happening. It's sort of going in multiple directions. Yeah, sort of. I mean, the structure... of the book and i've you know i think at some point just to like take it back a little bit i realized that as a photographer living in new york uh that you know i was interested in you know both uh fine art or whatever you want to call it like uh art world and uh editorial and commercial editorial commercial fair enough and uh you know what

I sort of kept them separate and tried to get work. Yeah. And then, you know, also like work on my thesis based conceptual photography or whatever. And at some point, I think in 99, I took a picture for Allure magazine and it was a how to put on lipstick. Shoot. Sure. And the model showed up and had this like the worst chapped lips. that I'd seen in a while. I don't even know what we're going to do here. It was a medical issue. It already feels like it's an art project. I haven't done anything yet. This is perfect, but not for Allure, but for my project. At that point, I can remember putting the Polaroid down from the shoot next to all my... I'm reading Wittgenstein and trying to figure out how I can be smart and philosophical in my... But there's this portrait of a girl with red lips that are very chapped, lipstick over chapped lips. And it was just like that image just smoked all of my thesis kind of smart work. And I was like, I just have to accept it. This is who I am. And if I'm polluting my artwork with commercial work, then... then I'm, you know, whatever, the swamp thing, you know, back to the swamp. You know, that's who I am. And so it felt like it was a way to tell the truth or a truth that was part of being a photographer in New York at that time. It took a while. You know, at that point, layouts were made with quark. remember quark yeah the pro the program yeah so i got quark and i was like this is not easy i thought i could figure this out but like three months later somebody said you should try in design so then i got in design and that was much more like intuitive and i i sort of figured out that i could do my own sequencing i think at that point i thought okay so this is really this is the next thing for me where i'm like not

just printing stuff out on my little office printer and like laying things out on the floor to look at a sequence. But I'm sort of like making the whole musical score in InDesign. And that format of the book, that transformed it for me. And so ever since then, I've thought of myself as like, you know, I can do these various things as a photographer. I can sort of, you know, it's like when you're a kid and you do odd jobs. you know, around the neighborhood to make money. It's like, I can walk the dog. I can, you know, get my dad's edger and do your, you know, I can cut the lawn. I can pick up your mail, you know, whatever. That's your service. Exactly. Well, I was, I was wondering about the sequencing because, um, you know, since you are of, um, you know, you're a little older than we are and the current generation now, everything feels so digital and feels so, you know, computer based, iPad based, whatever. And I was wondering if, you know, you have the benefit of having, you know, a couple decades worth of photos and you get to sequence them in a certain way. Yeah. And I was wondering if you were the type of person that prints everything out and lays it on the floor to see, like, okay, that shark photo has the same facial expression as this female model, so I'll put those together. Or is it just, like... Are you using InDesign or are you putting it on the wall? It's all InDesign. And it's like, you know, I've had people say, like, how do you do it or whatever. And I mean, I don't know. It's like, well, you just zoom out and zoom back in. So let me tell you how the computer works, guys. You can zoom out, right? You don't have to waste all the paper. I don't need any boards. Because people love pen and stuff on boards because it looks cool. That's why people like. What's that behind you? This is not mine. I'm in a friend's office, and I do think for this purpose, it's a TV show, so it makes sense. That makes more sense. Overall, people love to see the image of the photographer, just the floor covered in pages of the book and the layout. I'm struggling over the layout, but I think this book, because I have most of your books from over the years, but this one does feel like...

all-encompassing, and I have this, I feel like I've had this discussion before with photographer friends or whoever, and I'm like, just put all the good stuff in there. Like, we don't need, you know what I mean? If you're really trying to show what you're capable of, if that's the goal, then just mix it up and let people enjoy it. I don't think it needs to be so partitioned. Yeah, I think that for me, there was also something about this that was in 2000, what was it, 2016, I had a survey show. in cincinnati worked with the curator it was great uh kevin moore um cincinnati contemporary arts center for photo focus it was great it was incredible what an opportunity but following that you know there's something slower and more deliberate about that institutional thing and i was really psyched to do something um that would be retrospective but wouldn't be uh sort of beholden to the curator and the institution but more like you're saying like what do you want people to see you know it's like it's not just like what what does you know what qualifies as an artwork or what qualifies as a good fashion picture or commercial still life it's like no no no this is like the test with polychronic american polychronic was to it the the commercial work goes from 22 to 99 sequentially The exhibition artworks go from 99 to 22. So it was a little bit of a test to see, can these things over this past, you know, 23 years, can they juxtapose? Can they sit with each other? Does that create another juxtaposition in this like two decades timeframe? So it was challenging, but it was also like that thing where. I don't know. It's like, can you do 15 pull-ups and then you do 16 pull-ups and you're like, fuck, yes, I can do 15. I don't think I could do 15 pull-ups now, but when I was in high school, that was a big deal. Metaphorically speaking, you could do 15 pull-ups. We got it. Analogy. I think that when you create those weird rules or boundaries of just like, okay, I'm just going to, you know, one day you're just hanging out.

looking out the window and you're like okay i'll i'll do my reverse chronological editorial shoots juxtapose with my uh double reversed uh commercial workshops and we'll see what you know it's like it's like lifting up a rock and seeing what crawls out. Absolutely, dude. Suddenly these new compositions that you would have never considered are appearing for you. And then if they don't appear, then you can just rejigger them until something cool does work. I think that's an amazing idea. And it also happened at kind of just the right time or just the wrong time or whatever. In 2019, I was like, okay, I really want to do this, and I was talking to different publishers, and I work with Mac Books, Michael Mac, and I wasn't sure if he'd be into it or not, and he was like, you know, I think we could do a great job, and I'm like, I'm sure you could, but I thought maybe this is supposed to be more like a popular publisher or something that's not so specialized or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you could. You know anybody bigger, you know what I mean, that I could talk to? Yeah, that's cool, Michael. Thanks so much. I was thinking maybe I could make money on this one for a chance. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, once I got the green light from him, that was in the fall of 2019. And I started thinking about titles and stuff like that. And then by winter of 2020, it was like... Well, I guess I have something to work on here, you know, like starting in March, March 11th of, you know, 2020 was like, I could see it in my computer. I think it was like April 4th, 2020 American Polychronic. Like I had the name and then, you know, I live work studio here. So I was like down in the basement going through shit, doing that crazy COVID time travel. I don't know if that happened to you guys where you're just like, it's like, you know, you almost. fall into the well you know and um and so it was it was a good timing because you know i have the material and i have the time and no one's emailing to say like you know what time do you want the hair and makeup to show up or you know like can you please send a pdf of your

most recent work like it was quiet yeah a blessing a blessing for some people yeah i mean i yeah i think it was yeah you use your time wisely not everyone did jason got really good at sourdough but that didn't really pay off in the same way no i got really good at making this podcast okay that's true that's true that's true i'll give you that's something yeah that's something yeah that's something that's something and kettlebells bro you you mentioned earlier about you know sort of walking the line between commercial and editorial work and you sort of referred to yourself as a swamp thing as if being able to navigate the worlds of commercial photography and editorial or artistic photography is a bad thing but I think that's sort of the dream or the the dragon that everyone in your position, excuse me, that everyone in your position is chasing because you want to be able to create beautiful art that impresses people and also be rich. So like, yeah, exactly. You consider like, what is your philosophy on the ratio of one for you, one for them, or if somebody is listening and they want to try to figure out how to ride that perfect line between commercial and editorial. Do you have any philosophy or advice for them? Oh, man. I did have to answer this question recently. In fact, it was going to be a promo piece for the book that I sent to Mac. And I was like, I don't know. Does that work? They're like, it's great. And then they never used it. So I was like, maybe it wasn't great. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. If your answer is bad, I'll make it good in post. Don't worry. I'm an audio retoucher. I mean, I do remember. Oh, good. Thank you. That's what we need here. Obviously, you can't afford my day rate, but first one's free. This one's free. Thank you so much. Show you what we're capable of. You know what I mean? No, I can remember saying into my phone camera, get ready. That was my advice to aspiring photographers who want to do this. But I will say that I think that notion of doing both.

while there were people who were doing it, it wasn't at the time when I, you know, in that early 2000s, it was like there might have been some people who aspired to do that or whatever. But it took a lot of convincing on the art side. Yeah, I was going to say the commercial guys, they want what they want and they're going to pay you for it and you're good. But the art world is less forgiving. Well, it was just like a question of like, is that morally? sound somehow you know it's like you're already sold out so you can't really sell out twice in two different worlds you know or something you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube exactly but but for me it was again it was like a thing that um my interests or whatever were in terms of photo history did not align with in a sort of like traditional like where in art school i might be learning uh about conceptual photography or you know things that preceded it like you know things that i loved all of it but like lee friedlander i love lee friedlander but you know these things felt like they were in a historical line from basically from the 50s you know like the decisive moment let's say cartier brisson too contemporary time with like appropriation, Cindy Sherman, Richard Prince, like, you know, different things that you would learn in school. And at some point, I think it was, I don't know if it was like, I saw an outer bridge image and was like, yes, that is correct. Or what? But, you know, I think I was at the same time, like sort of interested in this idea of, you know, an early 20th century, late 19th century photography movement that was called pictorialism. And that was like one of those things that was just that was truly forbidden. Like you couldn't like if somebody in a critique said it's very pictorialist, I would have taken that as an insult. You know, so it became this like taboo that I was like, I need to know more about pictorialism. Why is it bother people so much? Why does it bother me? And then, you know, I started to understand how this like the history of photography could be.

telling me something about right now in terms of like what, what my interest was, which, you know, it was like somewhere between whatever bride's day magazine at big star or, uh, you know, William Eggleston or, you know, whatever. But what was interesting to me was the split between Stieglitz, who was more of the art guy and Clarence white, who was the guy who was teaching people how to make applied photography, commercial photography. And it was like, once the image could be reproduced, like, in a paper or magazine format, that changed everything. You know, then that schism became the thing where you could choose to be an artist or could choose to be a commercial person. And I guess, like, to me, that was, like, the most interesting thing. And, you know, it was, like, it also, like, the outer bridge, the Americana kind of, like, large format, that color. that staged feeling of artificiality that like you know i love from david lynch uh you know these qualities of like suffocating americanness you know that was like yes i i know that all too well growing up you know in dunwoody georgia uh and you know to some degree maybe maybe the exotic side of that is like i spent my first 10 years in south dade i grew up i was born in miami So, you know, between that sort of like, you know, lizards and, you know, like fishing to like, you know, church and football, you know, it's like all of those things like combined together or something. I love, we take an x-ray of Roe and that's what we see. We got lizards, church, football, you know. A little CTE. Roe's got that lizard in him. He's got that lizard. Yeah, I mean, you're. That kind of American suffocation, I mean, when you look at one of your most iconic photos of the refrigerator, there are no people in it whatsoever, but it just conveys that if you were there in 1999 and you had a refrigerator, what stuck out to me when I was looking at the image again was there were stickers on the cabinets.

uh-huh and like the thought of doing that right now in my house yeah it's just so insane but back then it was kind of normal you know what i mean yeah yeah it's all those little things and it just takes you right back yeah if you yeah if you had a yeah the refrigerator is clean now but there was a time where the refrigerator was kind of like the almost the centerpiece of the kitchen it's like where information would come from like the calendar was there right pictures were there you know like there's the hub yeah it was the football stuff like the magnets the whole thing like that doesn't always like family history yeah but according to mom and like you know that's exactly it's mom is the curator of this museum and you cannot fuck around with mom's curation like if you touched something if you moved something it was like somehow magically moved back you know it was like oh I thought I took that off. If you touch my grocery list, go and get the switch. Yeah, exactly. You don't draw back enough. You don't draw back enough. No, that's true. That's really true. Ro, how often does the country come back out in you? Or is this the first time it's happened in a long time? No, I'm sure that it does. I think when my Aunt Paul lives in East Tennessee, like two miles from the North Carolina border, it sounds... So hilarious that that, you know, hillbilly kind of country accent. But I'm sure that that I have that whatever that like my mom did this, too. And probably we all do it like the chameleon thing where you start to kind of like sound like the other person guilty. Yeah. Right. And so so I think there's a little bit of that. But I just when you're asking me about that, I can remember. It was probably like a year or two after I moved to New York and I would call home. And it was like when I finally realized, like, Jesus Christ, can you guys talk faster? I don't have to be anywhere, but it's just taking too long. It's just annoying me. You got a cup of coffee and smoking a cigarette, and you're like, get to the point, guys. I live in New York now, so it's different. Finish the sentence. I joke with you. My mom sounds like that for real. People think I'm kidding. I'm like, no, my mom talks like that.

totally normal you know that's just what that's that's what it is yeah when i moved to north i had a similar experience where it was like some of my southern manners and like niceties people do not respond well to and i had to relearn like right you don't need to you can't say yes ma'am and yes sir people think you're calling them old shit like that you know and i'm like dude i just i don't know what to tell you this is what i was i was taught this this is my whole life i know yeah i mean chris how do you feel when somebody when like a fucking 23 year old piece of shit calls you sir don't you feel old i feel old but i think i recognize that i know guys i know who bad bunny is yeah exactly like i'm not like the other guys hey hey i want no i've seen euphoria one episode no i think that it's um i think that i recognize my position in the world and that to someone of that age 40 is old right so i don't really i i don't think it nothing really makes me feel old i have to be honest like i don't ever feel like maybe body stuff like when my elbow is acting up i'm like damn this wouldn't have happened if i was 25 yeah but like maybe maybe when you're on your 16th leave back and muscle that day do you feel old at that moment When I call you and say I can't podcast today because I've ruined my liver from a leave, then maybe I guess I would kind of reconsider everything. I guess speaking of aging, Ro, I don't want to age all of us completely, but let's say you got around a decade on us, but you look the same age as us. Yeah, what's the deal? Drop the beauty routines. What's the deal? Do you have serums that we don't know about? Is it just clean living? What's your secret? If you Google search back, it starts around, I quit drinking December 10th, 2016. Okay. And as I was saying before, I'll have a bitters and ginger ale or whatever. Yeah. But I don't think that I looked old then, but there are pictures of me that are online and I'm like, fuck, man, I'm like about to pop. You know what I mean?

There's a maximum density there. So I think there is something, there's probably something genetic or, you know, whatever, late bloomer-ish, you know, like I was like, like didn't develop quick, you know, I had a childlike appearance into my adolescence or something, you know, something, you know, I don't know. It doesn't really, I have not done anything in particular. I smoke, I drink coffee all the fucking time I drink. So much tequila that when I quit, I actually felt bad for Mullane's, which was the place across the street from me because I was like, man, they probably have so much Patron in the back. They're just like, what are we going to do with this tequila now? we order a case a month for this fucking guy and he's not showing up anymore this is bullshit fucking problem i mean we hear it all the time from people who when you talk to somebody and they you know had a big weight loss thing or something like that and they're like what's your story i'm like oh i just stopped drinking and i lost 30 pounds in a month like How fast did the pounds come off once you quit drinking? It was 25 pounds in six weeks. I do remember that. I know it wasn't just from drinking. It was because at 11 o'clock, after the pints and the tequilas and the whatever, it was like, I think I'm going to have a cheeseburger. I'm going to put bacon on that. At 11 o'clock at night. That's not a good time to eat a bacon cheeseburger. For some reason, you're still hungover in the morning, so you have to have a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich as well. You're double bacon, egging, and cheesing is the problem. Honestly, that's what it is. I think that's what it is for most people. A lot of people say, oh, I can't smoke weed because I just get the munchies and I can't stop eating. For me, it was always alcohol. Just like you said, 2 a.m. seems like a great time to order nachos. Let's fucking do it. Calamari. Let's get nachos and calamari. Calamari at 2 a.m.? What the fuck? Where are you going? I didn't know they sold calamari at White Castle, and if they do, I don't think you should be eating it. That seems risky, dude. That seems risky, bro. The pub that was across the street from me, I used to say it was kind of like my airport bar. You know what I mean? They sort of had everything on the menu, like too many things on the menu, and you probably shouldn't be ordering it.

It's like, fuck, man, I'm going to be really hungover if I don't eat something greasy right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they knew exactly what they were doing. Speaking of some slightly older photos, I saw a photo of you, I think it was 2019 maybe, and you were, I think you were just like hanging out. Maybe there was a dog around. You were smoking a cig. but you were wearing, you did something that I've never or rarely seen somebody successfully pull off. You were wearing flip-flops with socks, and it was working? Uh-huh. Tell me how. Tell me how to do that. Where do you get your powers from? How did you do it? You know, it doesn't work for everybody, and I have a good notion. Let me remind you, Jason, it doesn't work for everybody. I mean, I guess that's a little bit of the Tallahassee in you coming out. Yeah, definitely. It's a Key West swag, maybe? I think it's a little bit Japanese. Yeah. Okay, so you have the Japanese do the, you know, you wear the thongs in the sock thing. But it's also like, you know, Dirty South. Like long socks with flip-flops is like a look, you know? So like I don't rap. I've never rapped. I can see you hopping out of the donk on Moreland in the socks and flip-flops to grab a soda from the gas station. Yeah, but I mean a lot of rappers will wear... Socks with like a Nike slide or maybe a Tom Ford slide. But you're talking about a thong where the sock is becoming tabby whether it wants to or not. Yeah, you went camel toe on the foot. He's got them on right now. I'll be honest. I'm proud of you, Ro, because I expected nothing less from you, but Havianus is the only brand of flip-flops that is acceptable for men, in my opinion. I agree. Some people, you know, like rainbows, which are the more expensive, you know what I'm talking about, like a little more substantial. But to me, a flip-flop should be the most non-substantial piece of footwear possible. Like, I want this shit to blow away in the wind if a gust comes. Those ones that, you know, when I was a kid that, you know, I guess like,

by the time you know i was coming up there was other options but it's those ones that are like literally like you said like almost lighter than air the foam yes yeah it's almost levitate you know it's like like when you go get a when you go get a pedicure and they kind of give you the free yeah the free yeah the slip-ons yeah yeah that are that are kind of they seem to be biodegradable like some cove water when you started don't do that when you started um When you started shooting fashion, like real fashion, did you make some maybe errors in your look? Because you were like, damn, I'm like exposed to this now. I'm going to try some new stuff. Or did you kind of hold the line throughout your career with your own look? No, man. You know, you all know the preppy handbook. Remember that? I don't know. Of course, the classic. In your babies, this was a thing that we all. Oh, you know, it was like a American phenomenon of like, you know, everybody knew. Yeah. And there's like preppy punk and there's this. And like, I guess I went through lots of stages, you know, with like hair color, you know, from that until I was 20 or something like that. And then I realized like, oh, you know, the collared shirt with the sweater is like, you know, like it makes me seem like I'm normal. And that's a great trick. You know, because I don't think that I am, but because I look the way I do and I dress the way I do, I appear to be normal. And I guess I just sort of went with that. And, you know, I remember seeing Pavement at the Masquerade with about 20 other people. It was their first show, first show in Atlanta. And seeing Malkmus and, you know, basically they all were dressed like how. And they kind of sucked, but in the best possible way. And it was like the pinnacle of slack with the vestige of the preppy handbook, but it's kind of faded. It's not grunge. It's not flannel. It's not dreadlocks.

like suburban-ish or you know whatever that is like a sort of like yeah yeah thing and so i mean malcolm is the is the godfather of that look and it's very i know exactly what you think well i mean it sounds like roe is the godfather of that look were you watching a pavement play and being like these motherfuckers stole my whole fucking swag well the truth is that i think they were they they you should give them godfather credit because they they definitely were out in front um in front of the camera right they had that they had the mic so you got to give them But it was the way that we dressed in Atlanta to identify not so much as a thing, but as not a thing. You know what I mean? It was to like, to unname yourself was like more liberating than to say like, well, I, you know, I was straight edge, but now I'm, you know, just hardcore or, you know, I was a skater and now I'm, you know, whatever. It's, yeah, it's that, I mean, that to me feels like 90s kind of like a certain kind of like slackerism for lack of a better term, you know, where it was like, I don't care about anything and my clothes are almost so plain that it shows that even though that in itself is a look, you know, everything's a look. I mean, I love that look of a nice sweater over a collared shirt. Classic amazing look. But whenever I try to wear it... I always wear it at a rave or something, at the wrong place, and people look at me like, oh, what kind of class do you teach? Yeah, but dude, you're 6'5 or something, so they're going to be looking at you no matter what you're wearing, dude. It's a very good point, man. It's a very good point. I often get told that I look like a cop in certain situations because of the way I dress, so I get it. I wasn't going to say anything, but it's true. I'm literally wearing a collared shirt with a sweater over it. I always find myself subconsciously, I'm always filming Chris for some reason. Yeah, yeah. Just in case he does something. Yeah, just in case. I never know what this guy's going to do. Jason actually wears the body cam in our relationship. It's weird. But also, there's something that I love about wearing a collared shirt and a nice cashmere sweater to a fucking rave. Because like you said, you are...

You're so ambiguously dressed, and you just look so painfully normal. People look at you in that setting, and they're like, what the fuck is this guy up to? What is he doing? Why is he dressed like this? Is he more punk than I am in some weird way? Exactly, exactly, exactly. I loved at the end of the book, everyone has a little blurb thanking people and things like that, and you had a line in there that said, very common in any book like there's too many people to thank over the years blah blah blah but you you you kind of put out the call to action if you are a person who helped make one of these images with me over the last two decades and i forgot to thank you in it send me a dm and i'll put your name in the next book so i have my question is have there been any retouchers or pas or hair artists that were mentally insane enough to send you a dm and be like bro 97 i fucking did this guy's hair and you didn't put my name in the book what the hell yeah no i actually i don't you know i guess i need to check go back and check the dms again um but no no one has has written to say i i helped you on that and you didn't name me but several people have um written to say, you fucking idiot, we worked together for five years and you still misspelled my name. I'm so sorry. So kind of one of your go-to people and you couldn't remember how to spell your name. Well, you know, it's that thing where you do this stuff when you think that you're the boss author and you write it out and you're like, okay, assistant. If you take it from here and you make sure that, and then it's like, and don't worry if you don't get it right because there's copy editors and they'll check it. And of course, then you get the book back and it's like, oh shit. Nobody did anything. So this is just like my stream of conscious spelling, you know? And they're like, Ro, you're the godfather of my kid. Could you please spell my name right for one? It's Ashley with the EY. We've talked about this. But I thought that was very genuine and sweet of you.

And also just refreshingly hilarious to be like, you know. This book's going to sell out pretty soon. We'll print another 10,000. If I forgot to put your name in it, send me as if you have enough time to deal with somebody DMing you for a photo credit from 2001. It was refreshing. Today was a little bit busy, but I will have some time tomorrow, so you guys go ahead and send it. If you're listening. The lines are open, callers. The lines are open. I wanted to ask you to give us at least... least one, you know, PG-13 to our Larry Gagosian story, if you have any. Okay. You know what I mean? If you have any that you feel willing to share, just because I want to add to kind of the mythic legend, you know, if we can do our part and how long gone. Okay. I'm collating as mentally trying to filter out something. Rotron 3000 is computing. Please hold. I remember several conversations. I think we've had lunch a handful of times at Capo. which is at 976 Madison, the sushi place. He eats lunch there every day. And I've had the good fortune of having several lunches with him. Every day? Pretty much. And I just want to make, just to be clear, he does pick up the tab. I mean, he owns the restaurant, so I guess. I'm not paying for it. I mean, how often has the guy ever been like, you know, sushi, I think I'm good today. Do you want to grab anything else? He's like, I can't eat sushi five days a week. Well, I think they make other stuff. They cook. food and you know it's like it's not all just sushi but um I'm digressing I'm digressing that's okay um but I do remember I was explaining that I was gonna I had this idea for the show in San Francisco uh like just you know always trying to trying to figure out another way to get an image into the gallery without it having to be a framed uh addition to artwork and so using a new process that I could print onto tile

And so I was explaining and then I was going to print onto mirrors and print onto tile. And I thought about it and went through my whole pitch. And he's like, you know, kind of looking at me, seemingly maybe not listening. I don't know. And then he's like, and I finish and he's like, well, nobody's going to fucking buy that. He's like, I'm going to let you finish, chief. He's like, I'm not paying for that. Are you done, idiot? You know what I'm in the business of? It's called making money. So we're not going to do that one. So did you ever end up printing on tile or mirror? Did not, but I did wind up printing on brass, but put it in frames. And the pictures of my sort of muse, Louise Parker, who's been in a bunch of my pictures. And those brass pictures are actually in the book. It's like they look like, you know, sort of brass colored background with a black and white double exposure on top. And those sold very well. So fuck you, Larry. You were right. I'm sure you let Larry know that you had to big dick him and be like, remember those, bitch? No, no. How's my dick taste, Larry? You get 10% of nothing. You happy now? Oh, my God. I don't think I can get fired, but he wasn't trying. He was right, though. He was right in that it needs to have a frame and it needs to go on the wall. That works wonders. That does work wonders. Well, I think that somebody is listening to this podcast right now who can afford to have their next guest bathroom tiled with... one of one yeah row photograph just dm me you know like dm me just kind of cc your interior designer on the on the message and we'll kind of get started once we decide on budget we'll take it from there budget i mean that sounds like a fabrication nightmare but i'm glad you figured it out right you know i mean i i know it can be done that's all i haven't done it yeah i know it can be done no i think that's i think that's a fun i think because i do think i don't know i mean i think that like

that Wolfgang Tillman show at the MoMA and the fact that like almost nothing was in a frame, like in that environment, it was pretty powerful, you know? And I think that like, but I do understand that like buying something you want, like it's a mental thing. We're taught that like, if you're buying art, it is in a frame. It's like, we can't unlearn that. And dude, if you buy a Tillman's, you're getting it in a frame, you know? get it pinned to the wall. They're professionally framed glazed art objects. If I'm buying a pair of row trousers, I want them to come in a nice bag with a nice tag on them. I want the box to feel nicer than it should feel. I'm plugging. Here we go. Ready? Let's cue music. Row by row, I got some T-shirts for sale at polychronic, thepolychronic.com. Okay. But, yeah, it's like when I first tried to make apparel merchandise stuff, it was like, you know, that packaging, I was like really obsessed with like getting, I got a stamp made, so I would like, you know, sort of stamp everything a bunch and put it in a little box and try to make the packaging. Do something. I was fucking losing my mind. The fulfillment aspect was like taking up more time than anything else. It was so insane. I was just like, you know what? Those white plastic bags, just stuff the shirt into the white plastic bag and send it. Oh, man. That's fine. We have a robust merch program here at How Long Gone. That's a big part of our business. And once we found a partner that we just send art to and everything else they handle, it's life-changing. I mean, obviously, they charge a fee, et cetera. It's fine. we never see anything until it's done, basically. That's awesome. And it's like, you know, it's the only way to do it sustainably. And I mean sustainable, like mental health sustainably, not like for the environment. It's still in plastic, of course. But also, you know, you come from that DIY generation and you, you know, it sounds fun and quaint and like a tangible project to...

put all the shirts in a box and ship them and all that stuff it is and during covid when we started the podcast we would do that and it would be fun chris would come over and we'd spend a couple hours yeah packaging and shipping them and like oh we did good stuff and we made money this is great yeah it does get old quick um yeah but if you if you do need any help with some t-shirt stuff we're more than happy to help out i saw the shirt that you're talking about it's like a black and white print of some A Portrait of Some Flowers, I believe. Yeah, that's from a... Great shirt. Thank you very much. Yeah, we did three little versions of it. Don't you do the book title in kind of like a collegiate style on the shirt too? I did a polychronic one with my dog. on it and put polychronic at the bottom and the dog's tongue is like really vulgar it was like July upstate just humid as fuck and the dog's tongue is like hanging out like six inches and really you know when they're trying to cool off he's really wagging that thing I bet yeah so I did put graphics on that one that says polychronic on it but it doesn't I haven't done an American polychronic I mean, it feels like it could be a university, you know what I mean? Oh, you're right. Yes, I did do the varsity shirt. You're right. I forgot about that one. Sorry, dude. Yes, we did it in, so you could pick between Yale and Harvard. So that was the color scheme that we went with, blue and white and crimson and gray. Yeah, crimson and gray, of course. Ivy League. Classic choices. But it's really more like DeVry, you know what I mean? I didn't even graduate from there, so I can relate. It's Ivy League for the price of DeVry. Exactly. That's what we believe in at Roe by Roe Etheridge. Roe by Roe has some serious kind of, you know, you guys have a hard line on where you stand, and value is something that is important to you. We're coming for you, Old Navy. Yeah, Roe, thank you so much for joining us on How Long Gone. We had a blast. And guys,

Go get the book. If you haven't, there's a lot of books out there. I'm sure you can find them on eBay or at Karma or Mast maybe. Or thepolychronic.com also. Oh, you have it all there. Okay, cool. Yeah, go direct. Well, not everything. Just the self-published stuff that's maybe a little bit harder to find. Come DM me. We'll see you at Elmere. We'll see you at Elmere. Burrito's on me. You and Jason can share some chips and guacamole. It's nothing really. We have a corporate card. It's fine. You guys are too generous. Big spenders. You're so welcome. I'll be in New York end of the month and you can take me over to Gagosian Sushi Spot. Just the first level omokase is totally fine. I don't have to go crazy anymore. No sake pairing at lunch. That's too much. That's too much. Yeah, dude, chill. Come on. Let's not get crazy. Thanks, Ro. We appreciate you. Thanks, Ro. Hey, thank you so much, guys. That was fun.