538. - Patrick Radden Keefe

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? A beautiful, steamy, steamy Tuesday here in Manhattan. Jason, I was just sent a link by our friend Jeff Hendrickson. It is something I want to share with you from the website. Have you heard of Sotheby's? Auctioneers, yeah. I know those guys. Okay, you know those guys over there. So Jeff sent me a link to a Grateful Dead page where the longtime sound engineer is selling all of his T-shirts. Okay, so this is a grail mine. It's a grail mine, and the prices are obviously... The lowest price you're going to get one of these ringer tees is $300, and they go up to several thousand. The prices for this memorabilia, it's nuttier than squirrel shit. Jeff made the joke that this is actually for Burning Man relief, but that's not true. For Bernie relief or Burning Man? Burning Man relief. As I scroll through this... I am reminded, unfortunately, at how good the iconography is. It's just a nonstop hit parade of designs. And it saddens me because I hate the music so much. But I'll share it with you. Please do share. I do have some collectors. Larry's expressed some interest in getting some stuff for the house. Namaganset. But are there any other examples of...

Like a brand or a band or something where that iconography, the logos, whatever it might be, you love, but you hate the actual product itself. Yeah, I was thinking. Like Dr. Bronner's or something maybe? I love the Dr. Bronner's artwork, funny enough. I know, but do you love rubbing their soaps on your body? Actually, yeah. I love Dr. Bronner's almond is a low-key slapper. For all my body soap hive out there, if you're at Whole Foods in a pinch because Santa Maria Novella is closed, go ahead and cop that almond Dr. Bronner's. But don't read the packaging. You might go to hell or something. I've never actually read it. I like, just a quick aside, I like body soap hive as if there's people out there who don't. soap their body but they listen to podcasts well i mean i there's definitely there's definitely people that listen to podcasts that don't soap their body i'm sorry i meant bar soap because bar soap is the only one that does the job um we're not gonna get into this it's too early it's too early for this if you use liquid soap and a loofah and you're a man You need to take a long look in the mirror. I do. I literally just... Well, it was one of those Japanese soaping rags. And if you're listening to this... Goshi? Goshi? Goshi. The Goshi towel. I need a re-up. I need a re-up on my Goshi towel. So you're... Are you... Okay, so the... Is that something that you can do, Chris? Oh, as soon as you mention Goshi, it's going to show up at your house in 24 hours. Don't worry about it. They have a billboard on West Hollywood right now. Oops. I know. Okay, so you're saying New York is, to quote 50, as hot as a tea kettle over there at the U.S. Open, right? It's disgusting. The players, yes, Djokovic and Fritz are on right now. And during the breaks, they're doing this cool thing I've never seen before where they take their shirts off and they put on like a, looks like 10 tube socks tied together and they drape it around their neck because it's full of ice.

So it's just cooling them down on their break. But yeah, it's hot. Like when I go take Mushu hiking at Runyon, and I've got to cool them down afterwards. I thought you brought a cute pink fan that does a little mist of water. I mean, of course I do, but you know that doesn't do anything. It doesn't do anything. There's heat out here. I guess because it's so hot, there's a new rule where between the second and third set, if one or both players request it, they give you a 10-minute break to cool off. Which, you know, hashtag cheating, but whatever. To quote 21, pussy. Yeah, exactly. Like, come on, bro. Back in my day, you're not even allowed to get a sip of water or you'd be shunned a goddamn bitch. I would say if you don't throw up, are you even trying? You know what I'm saying? It's kind of where I'm at with this. But yeah, it's hot. It's gross. To immerse myself in today's U.S. opening, I watched some of the sets in the sauna today. Okay. Just so I could know what it feels like to kind of be on ground zero over there. I knew you were an experiential marketer in your past, but I didn't know that bled into your home life. Yeah. That's great. I love that word experiential because... when when everyone started saying it i don't even know if it was really a word definitely not you know what i mean no that is 100 some agency mumbo jumbo that caught on in a bad way but but it also it also sounds plausible that it is a real webster's dictionary word totally oh it's believe yeah it's believable it's believable it's believable he's grifters so i went to my uh mailbox today's j crew day okay you went to your mail your your po box i went to my po box and because they called me let's call it like it is they called me last week and they're like hey you got too much shit here can you come by and i'm like i'm sorry i'm in la i'll come by on tuesday and they're like okay no problem um as i've said before this is a chinese facility um and i'm the only white man that's ever been in there is the vibe and they're very cool to me and i love them um It's a Chinese facility. It's a Chinese facility. So I go to pick up my mail, and I have my usual stuff, my usual several packages, et cetera, et cetera. A bunch of gay ass books, yeah. Some clothing, some gay ass books. And then there's the Helix mattress has arrived. And these guys don't know what to do. They're acting like this is the biggest package they've ever seen.

And it's just like... Well, let's paint a picture first because it's not... I mean, we got these... It's not small. Thanks to the good folks over at Helix Mattresses. So they're king-size mattresses. So it's not what you think it is. It's not a giant king-size mattress. They've rolled it up into, I guess, a spring or a summer roll, depending on what region of Vietnam you're from. Yeah, I was going to say. But this spring or summer roll... Also, it looks like a tool that you would use in a strongman contest. It's just like lift this 200-pound sack full of grain. Yeah, lift it up. Carry it up your stairs. Throw it over your shoulder. So I went today. I get this stuff. I'm like, guys, I can't. I can't do this right now. I need help. I need to phone a friend. I can't just do this myself. You could really use a wish right now. Unfortunately, I was in my workout clothing, so they were like, really? It looks like you're ready to do this right now. You're already sweating. It looks like she's in her bag ready to lift. I don't know what to do. I think I might have to hire a TaskRabbit to get the mattress into my house. Is that... That feels crazy. Not really. I mean, you need a hand truck. I don't know what else to do. Because I, of course, famously lifted it up my stairs. They happen to be a flight of three steps. One. But that alone, with my flimsy ass, of course, I've been getting it in lately. I've been eating my protein, so it wasn't a big deal. I could not. One person could not carry it up a staircase. Well, I know you've been eating a lot of protein, but I did see the video of you trying to wrangle the mattress, and it didn't maybe look like the protein had set in yet or something. You were struggling. Well, I would argue that your ass would struggle just as much. Okay, we'll see about that. Maybe I'll just bring a videographer instead of help. Says the guy who still has the... Well, is the mattress still at the post office? Yeah, yeah.

So you weren't able to carry it. Got it. Okay, well, speaking of protein, sometimes I know. I mean, yeah, it's tough. It's not easy, and we'll get there one day. Maybe the next time I'm in New York. Maybe you can help me. Maybe I can go swing by and pick it up. Yeah, that'd be great. I don't need any money. Buy me lunch. JG Melon on you. Something like that. That'd be fun, right? I'll get you a couple slices and a Pepsi. No problem. Pepsi? That's right. That's what you get, bitch. Not even a full cup? No, you get Pepsi. You hit me with the day laborer Pepsi spelled with a K. Pepsi. So, actually, sometimes I am concerned about your plant-based gains because you are a power lifter notoriously, strongman, black and all that stuff, but you don't eat like a power lifter do. No. So, how much protein are you getting nowadays? Is this a concern of yours and you're a nutritionist? I've never looked at that. It's like weighing myself. I'm not going to start a food diary. There's just some things I can't do and I just don't. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure I could use more, but I also feel good, so I don't care. Okay. You know, I know it's something I should pay attention to, like the stock market, but it just doesn't interest me enough to kind of track it. You know what I'm saying? No, I know exactly what you're saying. It just seems like... Just an interesting blind spot for somebody who is this. Yeah, but it's like a chosen blind spot. I know the information is there if I want it, but I don't want to complicate my life with it because I already don't want to eat anyway. So if I have to think about eating even more, it's not going to make me like it anymore. It's going to make me like it less. You know what I'm saying? I forgot what comedian would talk about it, but I don't need another thing. Yeah, it's another thing. Just to put it simply. We already have so many damn things. I have several. Well, I was wondering because you and I probably weigh around the same, and the notorious muscle-building adage is one gram of protein for every pound of body weight. So let's say I'm going to call it 200 pounds. I weigh a little bit more than that, but I'm just like, all right, my goal is to try to eat.

200 grams of protein 200 grams bro that is hard work yeah the only when i think about grams it ain't when i'm thinking about protein um i mean so like i made a smoothie like a a protein packed smoothie with some ladder yeah yeah you know that has like 30 grams of protein in the powder alone yogurt a little almond butter And I had a four-egg omelet. I'm eating all of that. I'm not even halfway there. This is what I mean. It's like all this stuff, I know it makes sense and I know it works, but it's just like, do I want to feel like shit all the time because I'm stuffing my face with protein? I can't. I just can't do it. But also, I didn't really feel like shit. Oh, that's good. I ate a four-egg omelet, and an hour later, I felt brolic. Good for you. Well, I think that could be... I felt like I could put in... Put in rounds. Like Blueface. We're glazing over. Congratulations to Blueface and Christian Rock on their baby. Yeah, I think that kid just got arrested for arsony. I just read on the Twitter. She live-streamed the birth and was like... People were commenting on the birth. She live-streamed the Inception, too. That's true. Blueface, crazy girl house. Well, Jason, we're skipping over something that's very important. And yesterday was not just... uh a holiday um you know it was it was them jeans birthday as well um and i just want to make sure his birthday it was also labor day whenever your birthday falls on labor day it's tough you know it's i don't ask for much from this world but yeah the the god god dealt me a rotten deck of cards didn't know that's that that's it's almost as bad as Christmas birthday you know I mean truly cursed but yeah I just I want to say I want to say from me to you happy birthday I'm glad you're here another year on this beautiful earth you're what 47 now yeah thank you to all the it's it's funny I never thought I would receive the old man jokes you hear about them on tv well you read about them and the amount of dms I got from people saying like hey

54 never looked so good. Stuff like that where everyone's having a good time with it. I don't mind it, I guess. It's better than the messages I receive telling me I'm an idiot for not knowing that Taylor Fritz's girlfriend was Armie Hammer's first victim and she dated Morgan Wallen. But, you know, we've all got blind spots. And then people I've never met in my life begging to get on the list for this Strokes party tonight. It's actually a J.Crew party featuring the Strokes. You know what I mean. And shout out to Bryn. And shout out to Bryn's mom. She just posted a text where Bryn's mom was telling Bryn to procure a New York Mets cap because he's a big fan, and that's how she will be able to finally land Julian, I guess. We have a guest today. Patrick Radin Keefe is going to join us. You probably know him from his work in The New Yorker, most recently the big Larry Gagosian profile, the king of the right-around. But he's written several books. The most recent Empire of Pain, The Secret History of the Sackler Dynasty, which is obviously a subject close to my heart. That's his most recent. Almost every one of his books has been adapted to a TV or documentary film. One of his books is being adapted by A24. That podcast, Wind of Change, that came out a couple years ago was really huge. I didn't know he was a podcaster, but he's also got two master's degrees and a law degree. And I just want to say, leave some pussy for the rest of us. You know what I'm saying? It's like, relax, dude. You don't need to be the best podcaster, too. Of course he's taken. But he also follows me on Twitter, which seems odd for somebody of his intelligence and pedigree. So maybe he's a little nasty man himself, and he wants to kind of run around in the dirt, in the playa with TJ. He doesn't. So I have a lot of great questions planned for him. He doesn't want to do that. Okay, got it. All right, well, let's give him a sprightly jingle and see what kind of... Never mind. We could do that. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone...

It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned.

They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. PRK. PRK in the motherfucking building. PRK Solutions. Sounds like a great company to work for. Great guys over there at PRK. They really helped me out with my 401. Patrick, can we get a little mic check over there just to make sure you're sounding good? Yep. Can you hear me? I had a yogurt for breakfast. Look, I don't want to know what you had for breakfast, all right? What is this, Conan? Just kidding. It's always what I go to, man. I know. That's what everyone's go to is. They always want to know. The sound engineer always wants to know what you have for breakfast. Oh, really? Because not only does it give a great audio test, but it's kind of a nice icebreaker, lighten the mood kind of vibe. You know what I mean? You know, exactly. It's a classic industry trick. I don't want to stay on it for too long, but was this real yogurt or coconut? No, so there is this fantastic yogurt that I've discovered. I have to forget. The podcast has started now. All right. We got Patrick here. He's done a lot of stuff, but we're here to talk about yogurt today. High source of protein, that yogurt, right, Patrick? It is really good. Hold on. Let me make sure I have the name right. Yeah, it's called White Mustache. Okay. I know that yogurt. Have you had this stuff? It is so good. What flavor are you going with? Is it really? Yeah. Fig. Fig. Fig. That's a twisted choice, Patrick. That's a twisted choice. Chris, that's racist. Oh, it's so fantastic. It has this kind of... It's got this kind of... Bear with me, but it has this almost grainy quality. I wish we had a writer on today who could use some words. Who could describe... Descriptors, we call them. You're saying that the yogurt has a mouthfeel that is pleasing to you, and that's part of the appeal, not just the fig flavor. Yeah, and it's also just the yogurt itself.

It's the whole package. I've had this before. I think it's a family-run business. It's a yogurt done in a kind of Iranian style, I believe. Exactly. They have a sour cherry. Exactly. They have like a honey one. They have a fig. But even just a plain one, it is so velvety and luxurious and smooth. It's a real yogurt lover's yogurt. It doesn't need anything. This is what I tell myself each time I pay $7 for an individual. portion yeah it's one of those yogurts it's the equivalent i i was talking about sushi just moments ago but when when you go to a sushi place and the the piece of sushi is so good they say no soy sauce it's like that but yogurt you know i will say like no granola no granola please i always i always defy that though at a sushi restaurant what yeah yeah always yeah pretty much why because i because i think everything tastes better with soy sauce No respect for the Japanese culture? What's up? What can I tell you, man? You're a dipper. I'm a dipper. I got a dip. What can I tell you? I got a dip. So it looks like Chris said power flashes and Zoom quit. Yeah, it's just you and me. Maybe Zoom went out. It was when he found out about my soy sauce habit. Okay, I guess we can pause for a second. Where are you? You're in California. I'm in California, yeah. In Glendale. Excellent. You ever been to Glendale? I've never been to Glendale, but I live in Westchester County, which is like Glendale of New York City. Oh, yeah? So you've never been, but you know a little bit about Glendale, perhaps. I've got enough to form an opinion. How much of that is from listening to this podcast? Is he right? It's purely from 100%, in fact. Oh, okay, okay, okay. No, the power's back on. The power just flashed for a second. but it shorted out the fucking Zoom. I've never seen anything like it's weird. It sounds like Chris needs some surge protection. It's taking all my restraint not to make a Burning Man joke. Okay, so Chris is back. We were talking about sushi and stuff for a minute and all that shit. So you are experiencing a Burning Man-style event. You're sheltering in place in New York. You are having brownouts. Is that right, Chris? I don't know what just happened, but the Internet is now out.

And the power is on, but luckily I'm able to tether, thanks to our friends at AT&T, to finish this podcast. So thank you to those guys, the first responders. Does Spectrum Wi-Fi know that this is J.Crew Day? I mean, I don't think anyone told them, but I'm sure we can send out a smoke signal and they'll recognize it. I apologize. I apologize. I'm sure you guys... I'm sure you guys were fine on your own. I trust both of you. Yeah, we were good. He said that Westchester is the Glendale of New York. What do you think about that, Chris? I think that is accurate, actually. That feels good to me. Do you live there, Patrick? I do. Okay. I said that I know nothing about Glendale other than what I've picked up from listening to this podcast. Okay. That may have helped shape my opinion. You're telling me that you've never visited Glendale just to kick the tires and see what's going on out there when you're in L.A.? That's crazy. What's on his to-do list now? I've driven through. Okay, sure. Well, I think Westchester, I've actually, I don't know if I've ever been to Westchester, but it's considered to be kind of like a nice, green, leafy. suburb just outside of the city. You can get in here in the Volvo in 45. Yeah, exactly. It's just outside the city. We're like 10 minutes from the Bronx. It's pretty and easy and dull. On average, how many smash and grab robberies do your malls have? Not. Not so many, I don't think. I feel like I'm not as attuned to what may or may not be going on at the malls, so I can't speak with any confidence, but I don't think so. Okay, all right. Excuse me. Jason, this guy does pretty well. He comes in the city to do his shopping. You know, he doesn't shop out there in the malls with his neighbors. Got it. There you go. I mean, some of them are high-end luxury malls, so I walk past them. Some of them are amazing. I went to a place. I went with my son. So my older kid went through a phase where he was doing Rubik's Cubes. Okay. Bear with me here. And he got into competitive cubing, which is a huge thing. I'm familiar with competitive cubing. I've seen it on my Explore page. Oh, are you? I don't know much about it, but I've seen a lot of nice-looking...

young people who complete Rubik's Cubes in seconds? Yeah. In no time. Yeah. I mean, what's funny is he could do it in under 30 seconds, but then when I try and praise him, you know, to him, it's like, that ain't shit. Like, you don't even write. We went to this event at the Palisades Mall. Sorry to interrupt. I think I just saw, like, the world record was, like, three seconds. Like some, some kids said it a couple. Yeah. I saw that too. Actually, that was recently, Jason. So it has been making headlines. So yeah. So 30 seconds, your, your child is saying 30 seconds is horseshit. I'm not even going to hit qualifiers. Get out of my room, dad. I fucking hate you. Yeah. He didn't, he didn't, he didn't make it to the, didn't even make it to the semis. He didn't make it to the semis at this day long event at the, at the Palisades mall. But the mall itself. has this incredible, I don't even know how to describe it. It's like a multi-story kind of wire thing where you, you know, it's like being in the, it's like being an Ewok. You've got like all of these different kind of wire contraptions that you can walk over. So you're sort of harnessed in. and you can climb up basically to the top of this five-story mall which is i found that is quite terrifying that okay it was a big attraction okay so but this is a paid opportunity you're you're giving somebody 30 bucks they strap you in and you start climbing you have to pay to do it but what was interesting was that it basically they found this lucrative way to fill the dead space you know in a in a oh yeah sure mall sure um anyway i was encouraged because i've always sort of thought the malls is like This thing from my childhood that's dying. But in this case, they are dying unless you come to beautiful California where they're all outside. And for some reason, those seem to succeed. You mean like a strip mall? No, sweetie. No, I mean like the Grove or the Americana, which is near Jason. Oh, I see, I see. It's like when you discover when you're a kid and you discover that like high schools in California have lockers outside or they have like.

The baggage carousel at Burbank is outside, and it just blows your fucking mind. That's kind of how I feel about being able to hit the Nike store at the Grove. It's walking distance from my house. This is amazing. So is your son a nerd, or is this just a phase, you think? He's not a nerd. It's a phase. And in fact, he's kind of passed through it already. He kind of moves from thing to thing. But there were about six months in which he always had a Rubik's Cube in his hand. And he would actually say, you're not even supposed to call them Rubik's Cubes. The good ones aren't Rubik's. Rubik's Cubes are kind of slow. It's like the Model T. Sure, of course. If he heard me saying Rubik's Cubes, he'd be rolling his eyes. Dad, you fucking... Not again. It's just cubes. That's like somebody calling it Frisbee golf instead of disc golf, right? Wow. Nice parallel, Jason. I'm glad you brought it home to something that you can relate to. Honestly, I'm not bragging, but it's a perfect parallel. No, it is. But Patrick, did you – okay, so I know this is what kids do. I kind of – I had my phases as well, but I feel like because of the internet and what children have access to, they move through these phases at a lightning speed. So fast. Yeah, absolutely. What is your favorite one so far that maybe you've kind of taken for yourself? I'm sure you're not cubing, but maybe there was something that stuck with you. Is there another autistic hobby that you're proud that he has adopted? Right, that I picked up along the way. No, I mean, it's in a kind of encouraging way. Like, if you gave me a day with a cube, I couldn't. No way. There's no way. Our brains aren't built. My brain isn't wired that way. And my son kept talking about how it's like, you know, it's easy. It's an algorithm. And I was like, no, no, no. You don't understand. Nothing about that sounds easy to me. Yeah, that does not make it better. That makes it worse. The only thing that makes it easier, I'm assuming, is Adderall? Yeah, definitely. That's helpful. I just haven't heard. Have any of them stuck with you? Or you're an innocent bystander? I'm mostly an innocent bystander. I was happy...

They got into vinyl for a while, so he's got a little brother. They're 10 and 13. Okay. And they got into – I like that there's a little bit of – so for these kids who've grown up in the last 10 or 15 years, they're these kind of pure digital natives. Just the idea of physical media is extremely exotic. Yeah, you're like, this is how daddy makes his money. You guys should try it. Yeah, exactly. No, I know. I know. These huge stacks of magazines. No, but I mean, so it's like whether it's – records or like band t-shirts or just you know like anything that um that uh feels like a reaction not digital yeah to growing up in a world in which everything in which you don't know what any of your favorite bands look like uh yeah you only know the one inch by one inch square that comes up on spotify on your iphone you're like oh these guys are actually pretty hot this is cool i love this yeah damn these guys rock yeah i mean i a vinyl i mean the way that vinyl has moved into this territory of like a way to support the artist versus a way to listen to music because it's because like the Swifties have changed it where it's like we'll pay $50. for a special edition of Taylor Swift vinyl that we won't ever open, but we just want to support her and have the object. Well, so you guys would know more than I would about the economics of it. Is it true with vinyl that they're actually getting a bigger show? Yeah. It is. Okay. Well, it's because of, like, Stan culture, though. It's not because of, like, audiophiles or, like, you know, guys our age with their record room and their Japanese listening system, you know? It's like your 10-year-old is going, Dad, take me to Barnes & Noble and pay $50 for this record so I can take picture of it and i like yeah i want to get i want to get the same record in all four colors yeah exactly i read something something recently that was that was kind of interesting about the specific subject saying that back in like the 60s and 70s the heyday of vinyl almost the same amount of people were buying vinyl without actually playing it only only like using it ornamentally as decor in your home

Or you could say that it used to be a cool, hip place to hang out at a record store, and you would just, collecting vinyl means you're a cool person in general, and almost the same amount of people weren't playing the records back then as they are now. That's interesting. They were like the books of that era. Yes, exactly. They wrote one Warhol quote and you're buying books, right? At least they're not organizing their records by color for the Zoom background. It could be worse. You just gave somebody a great idea, Chris. I just find vinyl to be very cumbersome in general. It requires so much. I can only imagine being a digital native, like you said. how cool that object would feel and be if it's completely new to you. Totally. And liner notes and all that stuff. All the good stuff. You know, the art. Yeah, just the kind of fetish object quality of it. And, of course, like I do, I mean, you know, for me it's books and magazines that I do, but I take some comfort in the idea that people still want an object on the coffee table. Yeah, you're like, it's good for business. Whether they've read it or not. Patrick, do you remember the last book you threw away? So I'm embarrassed to say I throw away books a lot. You got too many. I have way too many books, but also I get sent a huge number of books that I don't necessarily ask for or want. Yeah, it's like me and streetwear. The publishers send them. Yeah, I get it. We all have that. Do you throw away a lot of streetwear? Yes. God only knows. I will say with books, what's interesting is I can ask for any of them and they'll always send it to me, which is not true about most other industries. Do you know what I mean? Like if I email a publicist to Simon Schuster and say, I want this book and it's not out yet. They'll send it to you. Ten times out of ten, they're like, yeah, no problem. Yeah. Which is nice. But I know what you mean. Once you're on the list, you're fucked because they just don't stop. Yeah, which is true. I mean, it is one of the weird things about the business that is still mysterious to me is that the book business, you know, I mean, the economics and the kind of, I think, prevailing trends are actually.

better in the magazine business, and yet there are all these weird aspects of it, like the fact that they send huge amounts of free books out. You know, I mean, it is strange. I remember when I first realized that I could write to a publisher and say, hey, I write for magazines, will you send me a review copy of this book? And it's not like they ever checked in afterwards to find out if I was writing on it. No, definitely not. They're just like, yeah, here you go, Mr. Black, please enjoy. And I appreciate that, but it does feel like it's from a different time. It's like that kind of approach. But what is your thought on the importance of a cover? Because I noticed that yours are mostly text-based, and we see what happens. These books go viral because people are carrying them because of the cover. Do you care about that, or are you like, my shit is good, the cover is the cover? No, I care a lot about the cover. So I published five books, and the book that sort of was a bit of a turning point for me had a fantastic cover, and in a weird way, I think if it hadn't had such a good cover, I think it might never have found the kind of audience that it did. Really? Yeah, because it was a tricky book. It was this book called Say Nothing, which is about a murder during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and it's kind of... It's about this complicated history, but it's also... Yeah, that's going to need a good cover, because your description of it is... You already lost Jason. No, but the thing is, look at the cover. It had to do all these things, because it's about a murder. There's a kind of true crime element there, but you don't want it to be tawdry true crime. And we got this guy, Oliver Monday, who's now... I think he's the artistic director at The Atlantic now. He's done two of my covers. And it was just perfect. It took him very little time. He turned it around, and it was just one of those things where you've seen a million bad versions that don't do what you need it to do. Yeah, I'm looking at the cover right now. There's a nice set of eyes, Irish eyes. Yes. Plus Irish eyes. Irish eyes not smiling. Yes, exactly. They don't do that. Well, I mean, that makes sense, though. I think that, like, especially depending on the subject matter, it can really move the needle.

to get people in the door. To me, that's the most important. I'm trying to get you to turn the pages. I'm actively trying to write in a way that will, where you'll feel the undertow and you feel like you need to keep reading. The challenge is, can you get people to open the book and start? Once you're there with me on the first page, I'll do the rest of the work, but the cover has to do a lot, I think. Damn, well put. Get them through the door. I'll take it from here. Patrick's a real closer is what it sounds like. I was listening to you earlier a little bit on a Barnes & Noble podcast, I think, which I didn't know those guys were coming for our checks too, but we can take that up later. They're after you. Yeah, they're after me. Big book. I think Barnes & Noble is coming after any check possible. They're selling vinyl. I know that for sure. The host was asking you about the write-around. I'm familiar with this term. I'm sure Jason might not be. Other people might not be. If you could explain what the write-around is and how that's a tool that you use often to tell the story. I think a lot of journalism is very driven by access. It's driven by whether or not the person you're writing about will sit down. give you an interview. And this is as true, in some ways, this is as true for whatever, an athlete or a singer as it is. You know, it's true for like criminal figures, political figures, CEOs, whatever. And I think it's often the case at newspapers and magazines that if they can't get the interview... They just sort of say, okay, well, we'll take our toys and go home. You're moving. Yeah. Unless we can get Gretzky on the horn, this thing's dead in the water or something like that, right? Forget it. It's dead. Yeah, right, right. Well, no, but I mean, to give you a good example, right, like the New Yorker has not, you know, and we could argue about there being maybe other reasons for this as well, but it's like there are big, obvious people in the culture that we haven't profiled, right?

big kanye profile in the new yorker thank you for saying that thank you for saying that patrick and we've turned it down a few times now but how long gone if you want to do it you stand ready you stand ready we'll come we'll come to the table if you're kind of running the ship patrick he actually goes by yay right now can you can you bring kanye is the question so no but i mean the you know with a lot of these people right the they won't they won't cooperate and then it's done. And for me, what I do is I do a lot of the time I'll do these write arounds where the person says, no, I'm not going to play ball. And then I just go ahead and write about them anyway. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Which is, which is becoming, I think more and more necessary as a lot of high profile people are refusing more, more celebrity than maybe in the business world, but you know, like. Beyonce's not going to let you interview her. She's going to write an essay, and that's what you get to publish. It's a blessing. Right. She'll get paid a ton of money by Netflix to executive produce a documentary about herself, which she has final cut on. Yeah, I mean, I can see why if you're the cultural figure, that's a more appealing option. But I mean, the thing for me is what I'll do is I'll just write about them anyway, and that means tracking down lots of people who've known them, who they've... worked with who you know like ex-wives I'm forever calling ex-wives I guess I've always wondered this when kind of someone has no skin in the game unless maybe in some of these instances they've been like wronged by the subject so they like have a bone to pick but like is it when you I guess like why are people so compelled to share? Is it because they want to tell their side of things? Is it because the person has wronged them? Is it because you're compelling as an interviewer so they feel like opening up? Is it all of that? I get to be in a newspaper. There's that. There's that. Totally. Though a lot of the time the people you're quoting, they want to contribute but they don't want to be named. Yeah. No, I mean, it's totally different from person to person, right? It's like I wrote a big write-around about Chapo Guzman, and there, the case that I make, it's like if I talk to a DEA agent or a Mexican drug agent or a former member of the cartel, it's a different pitch that I'm making to each of those different people. Yeah, of course. And then I just did this big profile mini-worker of Larry Gagosian, and the funny thing with Larry is that he's...

He's such a huge figure in the art world, in this tiny world, the art world, that actually there were so many people who were so desperate to be quoted in the piece. Like I would call them and they'd be like, did Larry tell you to call me? You know, for them, like all of their power. their sort of perceived power is like, where are you in relationship to the Sun King? You know what I mean? So for that kind of person to be quoted in an article about him... Just happy to be here. I see. It's a badge of honor to be standing there, you know, in the eyes of the subject. Chasing clout in your pages. Yeah. Who do you think is more connected to the Sinaloan cartel? Chapo or Gagosian? This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable.

And they're just easy, but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash how long. Then or now. Yeah, I mean, Chapo's kids are still pretty active. I mean, Chapo's a funny story because I wrote a write-around of him because he was in prison and presumably didn't want to talk. But then after it came out, he actually asked if I wanted to ghostwrite his memoir. So sick. You're like, you know what? What's the money looking like, chapo? He's like, oh, by the way, you don't have a choice. You get the silver, you get the lead. Right, right, right. No, but that was actually what I worried about. The thing that was funny was the guy who was a lawyer who called and asked, and I said no on that call. I was polite, but I was just like, you know, I've got a lot of stuff going on. Like, what if it went sideways? Yeah.

But what was funny is he called back like a week later and he was like, as you continue to consider our offer. That's cool. I'm going to start doing business like that. I want to start doing business like that. That's smart. So they haven't mailed you a broken Rubik's Cube in the mail yet. Thank God. But I will say that when you've tackled... It's almost always someone powerful or whatever, whether it's the Sacklers or it's Chapo or even Larry. I do think there is a little element of intrigue and suspense and even a little fear from time to time, or are you going in there chest out like, fuck y'all, I'm getting answers? It's kind of both. You'd be stupid not to... Be aware. Not to be, yeah, not to be a little abrasive time. Like in the case of the Sacklers, they were threatening to sue me for two years. It's this like awful billionaire family who had a lawyer writing me letters for two years. Like I'd be irresponsible not to take that seriously. What's the grounds of something like that? Like defamation? Is it like really general just to scare you or is it like hyper specific lawsuits? Well, so the funny thing is it was like, yeah, in theory it's defamation. This guy, who's a really incredible guy, I wrote about him in the book, his name is Tom Clare. He's worked for lots and lots of people where it's like, if you're rich and somebody is out there writing about bad shit that you almost certainly did, he's the guy that you hire to try and intimidate the journalist. He's the doctor they told you to go see. Yeah, and what's amazing about him is it became kind of a joke with... some of my friends at the magazine, is that once you know about him, it's like a Where's Waldo thing, where you're reading the Scott Rudin profile in New York Magazine, and you get to paragraph 18, where they talk about how Scott Rudin once pushed an assistant out of a moving car. And then they're like, an attorney for Mr. Rudin, Tom Clare. You find the terrible person, and he often will show up somewhere in the...

Somewhere in the piece. So it's stuff like that you've got to take seriously. And obviously, in terms of physical violence stuff, I'm pretty careful. My wife has a pretty highly attuned antenna when it comes to the risk of this sort of thing. She's like, all right, phones down, Patty. It's time for bed. We're not doing this. We had this hilarious thing that happened. I don't know. This is probably a year ago now where we have home offices that are just next door to each other, but I have the printer and I got a tip about a story involving the Russian, the Russian mafia. And so somebody like texted me all this information and I print, I'm so old school. I work with papers. I printed all this shit out and I left it on the tray. And then I went off into the city and just had a day of meetings. And then I came home when I came home. She must have had to, like, print something out or something because all of my stuff that had been in the printer tray is sitting on my desk. But there was one piece of paper there which had been, like, taken out and separated from the others. And it was a – there had been, like, a death threat. It was, like, a complicated story, but there was a death threat. So somebody sent, like, a string of text messages in Cyrillic, like in Russian text. Yeah, yeah. And then there was a photo of a dead body. And I printed out these – so I printed this stuff out. And anyway, that one is on the top of the little stack of paper. And somebody had written in magic marker, no. Damn. And she's just like, you're not doing it. I mean, that feels like you came home from school and your mom had found the porn magazine under the bed. You know what I mean? And just put it on top of the bed to let you know that we found it. Babe, I can explain. I can explain. Look, they're Russians. They're just extreme guys. They're just crazy guys. I think that's a fair time for her to step in. I don't want to get involved in your marriage. It seems reasonable for her to step in there. It's always a conversation. At this point, Is information coming to you from every facet, from a text message to a signal to an email to a letter mailed to your house? Is it pretty extreme? Yeah, it's all of the above. It's hard because I think one hazard of doing this stuff is that I need my email address to be out there and findable on my website. When I was working on the book about the Sacklers, Richard Sackler's college roommate from the 1960s looked me up.

emailed me out of the blue. He was not a guy I found. He found me. And so you have to be there for those emails. But that's one out of every [redacted address]. Fauci. Sure, sure, sure. Wait, how did you – I thought I hid my email address better than that, but I guess you knew it was me. I guess you knew it was me. Oh, so you did get it. Wow. Oh, you never wrote me back. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for the 499 emails. Exactly. No problem. It's my pleasure. Speaking of the Sacklers, have you ever tried Oxycontin? I never have. It's funny. I've gotten this question before. I never have. It didn't feel – it didn't feel – totally essential have you let me tell you something let me tell you something patrick it's not it's great and i'm glad you didn't try it um it's it's as a former uh oxycontin addict yeah connoisseur that's a nicer way to put it i like that um i i find that i'm that's interesting though i feel like maybe you would have been tempted or not even so the first thing to say is like the drug does work for some people right like there's i think there's a version of this story which is like It worked for me. I just gained 30 pounds. I mean, there's a version which is like it's heroin pills. Like it has no medical use. And that was never my position. I think it actually is a remarkably effective painkiller if you're prescribing it for the right things in the right way. So you're saying it has been abused? It's been abused, but the other thing is it was marketed. So the whole thing with OxyContin, right, is that up to that point, drugs like that, that are opioids, right, so they're chemically related to the opium poppy, doctors would prescribe them, but only in really severe situations. And the whole marketing push with OxyContin, because they were worried about them being addictive. And the whole thing with OxyContin was they said, oh, it's okay, it's not addictive. Like, we should prescribe it for everything. You know, that if you have, whatever, back pain, sports injuries.

You know, arthritis, post-operative pain. It's like if morphine wasn't addictive. So cool. You guys got to try it. Really, their pitch was they were like, we've hacked it. Like, we figured out a way to do it. And there was no real basis for saying that. So, I mean, the other thing is, as a writer, there's a certain kind of writing where it's like you get to whatever, chapter 20, and then the writer talks about how they tried Oxycontin. I just, like, I generally find people describing their drug experiences to be. All right. Well, thanks for listening to How Long Gone, Patrick. Yeah, hold on. Chris, listen. Prove me wrong, Chris. Prove me wrong. No, I don't have any. I was more referencing. You've never had your wife tell you a dream before? That was awesome. Yeah, what do you mean? No, but I think that like, yeah, I guess there's a level to ingratiating yourself in the subject matter that is not beneficial to you as the writer. There's a line where it's like, I don't think I need to go that far. Like, I've got this thing kind of handled. I was just wondering if curiosity got the best of you. Oh, but I mean, the thing is, I've talked to so many people, right, where... I've got it on pretty good authority that it can be very enjoyable. I've heard from several experts that Oxycontin rocks as a high, and I can speak to that confidently. I've done my diligence on that one. So when something's getting adapted for the screen, which one are you more kind of a stickler about or you have more opinions about, like the casting or the soundtrack? I mean, I think casting is more important. And casting is fun. Having done casting now, it is kind of amazing to get to, you know, there's some part and somebody sends you, you get some great casting director and they send you 20 little two-minute videos of different actors doing the scene. I don't know. I find that aspect of it incredibly fun. Soundtrack, nobody... I mean, you know, it's like nobody... They don't ask you? Nobody's seeking me out for my... Are you like Jennifer Lawrence for this one? All right, great. But I do have... But listen, so I did this podcast called Wind of Change. Oh, we're going to get to that. I saw your little award. I saw your little award. Best podcast host? Is that...

Fair to say? There you go. I think so. This motherfucker got a Webby. Where do you keep that? I mean, it's technically three Webby's. Three Webby's? Okay, where do you keep the Webby's? Do you keep them in the bathroom, in the office? Are they above the mantle next to the Emmys? Like, where do they go? Safe deposit box. In fact, if my camera was on... Wait a second. No, it may have only been... I think I just inflated my Webby count. I think it may have only been two webbies. It takes a big man to admit when he's made a mistake like that. Unless I'm mistaken. I'm only a two-time webbie winner. That's fine. No, I keep the webbies on the bookshelf right next to my... So here's one. My ambies. Do you know what an ambie is? The ambie is the podcasting award, correct? Well, so here's the thing. You know that now, but the year that we swept the ambies... It was the first year that they'd done it. No, it's the first year they'd done it. So basically, we got these emails saying, like, there's this thing called, we've just started this thing called the Podcast Academy, and we're going to have... You're like, I'm good. Do we have to do this? For a small donation, we would love to nominate your podcast, Wind of Change. I know. And they're called the Andes, which just struck me as a very... an auspicious name. I love Brian Nino as much as the next guy, but do we need an award for ambient music? I was going with Ambien. Yeah, sure, that's true. The Ambies, it's a snoring contest. Did you like podcasting? Are you going to come for our money too, or is it a one-time thing? I loved it. I'm coming for you. So you were able to sweep at the Ambies even though Wind of Change did not have an ending? I mean, it had an ending. It had a final episode. I think maybe a satiating resolution. Yeah, Jason wanted more of a resolution. And I think that, I don't know if that's on you to discover, or maybe the story just ended there. Not that Emma Klein you, but, you know.

Wait, what was the term called before when you write about somebody? Write around. So you wrote around the ending, maybe? Is that what you could call it? See, I can handle this. After years of people coming up with their complaints about the ending. I mentioned my email address is available on the Internet. Every day I wake up to some extremely long email saying some version of what you just said. I just think it's funny. So here's the thing. Certainly when I'm writing for magazines, I think it's very hard to write a mystery story and not solve the mystery. I think people get pissed off if they spend an hour reading an article and they get to the end and you kind of throw your hands in the air. I do think podcasting is different, and I think it's partially because with these long-form narrative investigative podcasts, I think it's because it all kind of starts with serial. and the people were sort of conditioned into the idea that, um, that you can like go through, that it's more about the journey than the destination and so forth. I also think a big part of it is that people are walking their dogs or doing the dishes or working out or whatever it else, you know, that they're giving you less of their mind. That's what I said to, that's what I think. I think it's more of like, I was entertained. Like I liked this and I was entertained and like I went on the journey and I think you're right. It has something to do with kind of how it's being consumed. Yeah. And I think that for, you know, for, For most people who listen, for like 85% of people who listen to Wind of Change, that's the experience. There's always going to be people who get to the end and they're like, what? You didn't completely solve it? I want my hours back. But part of the reason I did it as a podcast was that I knew going in that if in fact the CIA wrote a heavy metal ballad, then it's an incredibly classified covert activity, which is going to be difficult to... convincingly prove. And if they didn't, it's a negative that's also going to be difficult to prove. So I sort of knew we'd end in an ambiguous place. But I loved it. I loved doing it. No, it was a great podcast. I'm only giving you a hard time a little bit in a fun way. Bring it, man. Bring it, man. Send me an email. I want to hear all your stuff. Yeah, if you could send me the Google Doc, that'd be great. And When The Change is a beautiful song. Whoever they got over, whoever Russia has over there in the lab.

I don't know. Mark Ronson? Writing the music. Yeah, I agree. No, I think there's some... What a tune. I didn't listen to the show. I mean, I'm familiar with it because I remember it was a big thing. I don't really listen to podcasts. I do enough. But this story was known before, but you just went deeper than anyone had gone? The only place the story was known was inside the CIA. Oh, wow. Okay, okay. Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, shit. Okay. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay, that's amazing. So basically the rough... the broad strokes are there's a conspiracy that the the russian no it's not the russians it's the cia basically that that the cia 1990 1990 the berlin wall just fell this heavy metal ballad by the scorpions is released called wind of change it becomes a huge number one hit all across Europe. And it becomes like the soundtrack to the end of the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapses, young people are singing the song on the streets. And the birth of the podcast was I got a tip from a source of mine who said that that song wasn't actually written by the Scorpions, it was written by the CIA. And the podcast is trying to get to the bottom of that. And you said cha-ching? It was super fun. It was super, super fun. I loved doing that. That's the type of shit where I'm like... Maybe my frustration was not that the ending did not have a 100% rock-solid ending. It was maybe more of like, if this is going to be a serial-style podcast, then let's not end it until... Let's not ever end it. It's funny. I did it with this friend of mine, Michael, and that's very much his perspective. He was furious that we end in this inconclusive way. He wants us to do... a million seasons trying to get to the truth. I bet his broke ass does. I'm all good. It was a big podcast. I'm sure you guys made a nice little chunk of change. I wouldn't want that party train to end either. Well, it's funny because there have been opportunities to do other ones since and I did have so much fun doing it, but I just haven't found the right thing. I wanted to ask you guys because some of the stuff that comes up is stuff that's more regular, kind of weekly. The ability to

do something that's a bit more regular. And I look at what you guys do. Is it not exhausting all the time? Do you not hate each other? Oh, Jason hates me, for sure. But no, I think that this... Not a fan. He's fine. Just the relentlessness of it seems... I mean, I realize it makes these shows work, right? For the listener, it's great that there's always episodes. But for the host, it just feels like a treadmill. It's yes, but I also, this is the only kind of podcast I would ever consume or I find interesting. And I also think Jason and I are, for better or worse, extremely plugged in to what's going on and pay attention to it naturally more than other people do. So it's not a labor to talk about things. Does that make sense? It's not a big deal. Yeah, you guys always have fresh material. Yeah, whereas the idea of... going to a studio where a producer hands us 20 pages of notes, and we do this whole thing and have to listen to edits back, that doesn't interest me at all. There's no way I could do that. It doesn't sound fun, but obviously I know the end product is different too. Yeah, but Chris and I, if people are going to sit around and grab a cup of coffee and gossip and talk shit and all that stuff, We just happen – we've done it our whole lives, and we haven't gotten sick of it really. So we might as well do it and put ads underneath it as well and make a cool living doing it. Shout out to DraftKings once again. Yeah, but I think that the – no, I mean I understand what you're saying, and I think it's like the few shows I do listen to are – a similar style to Jason and I. And the same thing happens where like, I know the cast of characters, I kind of know where they're going to go. And I think even tapping in with those guys occasionally, like reminds me of why this works the way it does. Yeah. We, we have, we have no employees. We, we have no bosses. We can do whatever we want or whatever we don't want.

and if something is not working, we could change it without having to ask anyone. You could change it up. Yeah. No, I mean, the autonomy part, yeah, I completely get that. It's like the tempo. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the tempo is absolutely stupid, but we committed to it, and it's like kind of something that is, I think it's a huge linchpin in any success that we've had, and it's like... I mean, I'm a big – Jason and I are both Virgos. Happy birthday to us. But we're both pretty like – you know it's like consistency is a big part of our lives like we both like our kind of like our creature comforts we have our habits good and bad that we kind of go back to all the time and i think this is kind of one of those things like you slot it in and you're doing it and it just it feels good to check off the box you know feels good to slide in hey it works but i and i know what you mean about listening to other podcasts too i do i do think on some fundamental level and i don't mean this in a uh i don't mean this as shade but it's like I'm not even talking about you guys. I'm talking broadly speaking about the reasons that these same cast of characters two or three times a week podcasts are so... It's cheers. Totally. It's the familiarity of... of a sitcom of a sitcom right of a very special how long gone yeah no it is it is like that and that's the that's the feedback we hear a lot like that's the feedback we hear a lot and i mean like this has been you know this has been investigated by people much smarter than than i but you know the parasocial shit is one of the most real things that is like that is something that podcasting has shined a light on which i don't even what does that mean exactly parasocial basically means because people listen to jason and i talk three times a week they think we are friends and they have a relationship with us but that is strictly one-sided because we don't know them you know or anything about their lives or whatever so it creates this it creates this like dynamic where it's like you get a very dedicated and like devout here's a good example pat you know you know how you think you're best friends with don draper but he's not a real person it's kind of like that i mean he is to me

Not to burst your bubble. It's a character. Same kind of thing. I'm like Don Draper of Spotify. That's fair. I think you drink a little bit less and you're not quite as good looking. You're not as successful, but there's some other parallels. There's some other parallels I see. I'll take it. That's podcasting's whole thing. I can read all your books, but I don't know anything about you. Here's my one question then. Does it get... Does that occasion weird moments, then, when you go out and meet real people who feel as though... Sometimes, yeah, sometimes. They know you really well and you have no idea who they are? Yeah, people don't come up to me because they think I'm, like, an asshole, but it happens to Jason a lot. Yeah, I mean, the only times it ever gets weird is if somebody's, like, drunk. Like, if you have a person who, like, clearly listens, like, every episode, and they feel as if... They know you more than they know some of their friends or family. And if they're drunk, they might start kind of spewing a lot of truths that maybe they shouldn't have spewed. And Patrick, as you can. That's when it can get a little dark where it's like, oh, geez. But also, like, thank you for your service and loyal customer base and all that stuff. And Patrick, as you can imagine. When this happens, it's always a 28-year-old dude who's been over-served. You know what I mean? It's always exactly who you think it's going to be. Sometimes it's ladies. It's the parasocial, drunk, how long gone fan. That's what our shows are, and we love them, honestly. Nine times out of ten, it's great. So you've got to take the L. It's a sign of success. I mean, I don't mind. I've had a lot of bad jobs, and I've had a lot of times in my life where I did not make – where my life sucked in order to make money. And if I got to talk to a couple drunk people who are like – You're so awesome. It's really not a fucking big deal. I was going for darker stuff than that. If this is about drunk people telling you how awesome you are, then that doesn't sound too bad. Do you have an example of something dark? Any ideas? To give you an example, years ago I wrote a big piece before he died. I wrote a big profile of Anthony Bourdain.

that was a guy who everywhere he went, he encountered people who really thought that they, that they knew him, you know? And, um, I mean, in his case, what it meant was that like everywhere he went, people were offering him food and booze and like drugs, um, and, um, getting, and if he didn't have, um, like he wouldn't. We did a few events together, and he would always have a thing where he wouldn't stay and sign books. And for me, I always sign books. If I have to stay for an hour afterwards, I'm happy to do it. It feels amazing to me that people have bought my book and would wait in line to talk. But I'm dealing with a manageable number of people and interactions. For him, it was just one of those things where he was like, I'll be here till midnight. It won't be pleasant. So then it's this thing where he's encountering these people who say, who've like bought tickets, waited in line, and they have their dog-eared copy of Kitchen Confidential that they bought in, you know, 1999 and have been carrying around ever since. And they want him to sign it. And he says, no. And these are sober people. But on some level, they're like, wait a second, fucker. We were supposed to have a moment. That's like the Eminem song Stan. That's the difference between a fan and a Stan. People forget that Stan means it's also kind of dark. Yeah, it's very dark. That's a good example, though, because I think he really does. I liked Bourdain. I thought he was cool, but the devotion that he had is kind of... I don't understand it fully, like the way people worshipped at the altar. I mean, maybe you have insights. I understand it. Is he that compelling? Is he that compelling? I think it's because everybody else in his same situation was so inauthentic that his somewhat authentic depiction of his personality shined through so much more.

just in comparison to how fake everything else is. That's so well put. I mean, yeah, I think it was exactly that. It wasn't actually that he was 100% authentic. Like the guy he played on TV or on stage was not the real guy. There was a difference there, but there was a kind of devotion to authenticity and the idea of authenticity. I mean, I could give you a million examples, but just to give you one. For 20 years, investors were coming to him, throwing money at him and saying, we can open a chain of restaurants. We'll start in Vegas and go from there, and it'll be your restaurant, and you won't have to do very much, and you'll make a ton of money. And his response was always, in this kind of humble way, he would say, I'm not a great chef. My best friend Eric Rupert is a great chef. I was a cook. I was a cook for 25 years, and I could broil steaks and make good French fries, but I was not a guy who was out here designing really compelling menus. And so on that basis, he wouldn't take the money because he felt as though anything they produced would be inauthentic. And I think that there were a bunch of instances like that where he kind of made the difficult and less remunerative choice but kept it real. And that that meant a lot to people. He also had enough money, I guess. He didn't need his Guy Fieri airport lounge restaurant. He was doing fine. Guy Fieri, I feel like there's somebody. In fact, I think it might even be our mutual friend, Jonah Weiner. There's somebody. I feel like Guy Fieri is going to make a comeback. I feel like there's a certain counterintuitive. Guy Fieri isn't that bad. Well, he wasn't, and then he took a picture with Trump at a UFC thing, and they all turned on him. Oh, I see. Very recently. I think the Guy's Renaissance happened a few years ago, and Tony was probably his biggest enemy. Before he passed, he would talk shit on Guy Fieri all the time.

emerald back in the day yeah and then i think everyone sort of agreed with bourdain at the time and then uh and then guy sort of slowly killed everybody with kindness it's the skrillex effect it's like hey he's he's the nicest guy of all time you know he's just he's just he's the best he's the nicest guy so you gotta just be like you're down with it it's all good but um well yeah he's also probably Kind of a bummer dude who's like into Trump and stuff. Yeah. I think people are because he's just good at his job because in comparison to everyone else, he's the only one who's authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you don't like the authentic, which I don't, I recognize that it's real. in that case wait this is authentic guy theory yeah like he's definitely like that guy because in comparison the average food personality on on food television it's some of the most fake shit you've ever seen like even moms and like housewives are watching like nah this is like this is too crazy yes i mean i guess i just it was hard for me to get past his presentation because it just looked like his whole look Felt to me like somebody in high school who decides they need a look. Yeah, well, I think he did decide he needed that look in high school, and then he stuck with it, and it kind of worked out for him. I think he's the rare case. Well, also, you walk through any airport in the middle of America, and 40% of the people are dressed not dissimilarly. Yeah, that's true, though. That's true. No joke. And people who have large sums of money as well, you know? It's just... Yeah. You know, it's like upscale Margaritaville. It's interesting to wonder if Bourdain had lived, whether he would have reconciled with Guy Thierry. Because, you know, he did reconcile with Emeril. They ended up actually becoming pals. There's a great moment in that when I wrote that piece about him, I had this conversation with him because he was going on and on. We were in Vietnam, and he was going on and on and on about Henry Kissinger and how much he hated Kissinger and, like, Kissinger shouldn't be able to get a seat in a restaurant or any of this shit. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, you've always, I was like, you used to talk that way about Emeril.

He's like, well, yeah. And he was like, and no, no, without skipping a beat, he was like, Emerald didn't bomb Cambodia. I mean, sure. I mean, sure. That's funny. I do think, I think near the end, I think it was like with the show, it just became like pretty heavy handed. And like the travel and the politics side of it, where it's just like it kind of, to me, it got away a little bit from what the magic was. Oh, that's interesting. I liked it more the more it got away from... Because the crazy thing that people forget is that the first iterations of his show before the Travel Channel it was on, I don't even remember what channel it was on, but the... Cook's Tour? If you actually watch a cook store, the whole thing is gross-out stuff. It's just him eating nasty shit. Fear factor. Joe Rogan's fear factor. I don't want to watch that, but I also don't want to learn about poverty in Africa while he's eating rice. There's a fine line to me where it's like, you can educate the viewer a little bit, but let's not... I don't look at him as an authority on that. I look at him as a guy who's good on TV. Yeah. But see, to me, the magic, and we may have to agree to disagree, the magic of it for me was that he could actually get CNN to pay and get people to watch a whole episode about Congo or Beirut or whatever, through the lens of food. But that was the Trojan horse for it. Yeah. But every five minutes when you're eating the food and you're on horseback. in some crazy saharan desert you have there has to be a part where he goes oh goat testicles yum you know he still has to have that little gross out i need a cold i need a cold can we get a cold beer over here yeah no i mean i i i think but i i mean i i guess you're you're right though like i think that that part of it being a little bit of kind of like subversive in a way um as far as like getting cnn to to do things they might not normally do because it's coming from him under the guise of like food and exploration right is it is a net is a net positive overall whether i i'm gonna watch it or not it doesn't matter totally and i also think it's i mean on some level why if you're gonna be him and and accumulate the kind of clout that he had you know i mean

Do what you want to do. His thing was he had completely lost interest in the food stuff by and large and didn't want to know. In part because obviously the whole industry of shitty food porn shows had grown up in the years that he had his. Yeah, he had done it. Well, I hate to ask this question, but it's something we've talked about on this podcast a lot. What do you think about his untimely death? What do you think the true story is? I don't know, man. It's funny. When I got that assignment to write that piece, I had just written a series of really depressing stories for The New Yorker about just war crimes and terrorism and one awful... All the highlights. All the good stuff. All the good stuff. One awful... We're trying to touch all the bases. And my... And David Remnick, the editor of The New Yorker, basically said, what would you want to do that was fun? And I said, I want to travel around with Anthony Bourdain. I want to spend some real time eating and hanging out with Anthony Bourdain. And so for me, the whole piece was supposed to be this fun lark. And I remember halfway through calling my editor and saying, this has gotten really dark. This guy is not in a good place in his life at all. It was during the time, I spent a year working on the piece, and during that period, his marriage fell apart. It was one of those things where when I initially met him, I met him and I met his wife, and it was like a story about their happy family. And then the marriage fell apart, and he, I don't know. I mean, it was very clear to me that he was in a pretty bad place, and that in a kind of strange way. I do think that there was this paradox with him, which is that he was a deeply depressed person who had a total fantasy job, a job that is for most people. In the piece, he has this line where he said that when he pitched CNN, he said, I'm going to travel around the world, eat a lot of shit, and basically do whatever the fuck I want. That's the description of the show. And they were like, great, you can have a show doing that. And I think in a weird way, it made it harder.

He was hip enough to how crazy it is that he could be unhappy when he had that job. That that only made it worse, in a way. Why can't I even enjoy this? I'm so fucked up, I can't even enjoy the best life of all time. I don't know. I saw the documentary, I've read all the books. In terms of the relationship, that clearly was a toxic, bad relationship. But at the same time, you know he was in a bad place and and and i think i i just there was a weird thing that happened um with what's what's her name i'm blanking on her name asia argento where where there were a whole bunch of people especially people in his life who basically were like um yeah he committed suicide but basically that bitch killed him yes and yes and that and that that to me felt i just i feel like you can't i i just think It's a serious accusation to fling around. Yeah, and I think people are complicated and things happen. And, you know, suicide is complicated. Depression is complicated. To me, it felt a little, I'm not absolving anybody. I don't know all the ins and outs of it. But the idea that it just felt pretty grotesque to me that everybody was like, okay, history has decided that it's this woman's fault that he killed himself. Do you know what I mean? And I don't know. um that's a good it's a good point it's a good point you may disagree i don't know but that was my perspective no no i think that's i think that's i mean i think that was three sides to every story even with a crazy bitch involved that's true that's true we've all got them um all right patrick thank you for joining us on how long gone today it was a pleasure on that on that incredibly upbeat note thanks again for bringing it down patrick jesus fucking christ yeah once again so this is what this is what i do all right well don't worry the second round we'll get we'll just start with war crimes and go from there but this time you know we We'll take it easy on you this time, but no, thank you for joining us. You guys can follow Patrick's work over at The New Yorker, of course. There's several books you can buy at your local Barnes & Noble. Go cop those. Turn on your television, flip around any Hulu or Netflix. He's got some skin in that game. You can watch some Sacklers. He's got his fingers in the pot. Patrick, did you like the Nan documentary on the Sacklers? I did, yeah. That was kind of happening while I was...

you know, while I was writing my book, and Nan was kind of the, you know, she's sort of one of the heroes of my book. So yeah, I thought it came together really well. Did you like it? Yeah, I did. I thought it was great. I did not think it was going to work with the footage kind of stitching back and forth between her personal diaries and the opioid crisis, but really found a way to have it all kind of flow together. I was impressed. Yeah, I thought it came together really well. Thank you, Patrick. Well, thanks, Patrick. We had a great time. We appreciate you taking the time and kind of slumming over here with us. Yeah, we love when people come down to our level. That's kind of where we feel the most comfortable. So thank you. Listen, man, I'm just coming at you from a very parasitic place right now. So glad we can make it official. All right, deal. All right, we'll talk to you soon, Patrick. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Take care.